Disrespectful Atheists

[Augusten]

Quote:

Please read the entire first post before submitting your opinion. This is not my bashing any one person or group. I did not make this to start a mean-spirited argument, as I like to consider myself an atheist as well. Rather, I would like to put forth some observations and receive some feedback. Thank you! heart

There are a lot of "disrespectful" religious folk. Whether they push their religion on you, their morals, their opinions, whatever, there are a lot.
When I go into a religious debate, there are a ton of atheists who jump right to the point and say "WELL I JUST DON'T LIKE THEIR RELIGION BEING STUFFED INTO MY FACE."
Which is fine. It's true. Not many people really enjoy that.

But does it not cross the line when an atheist does it back to a Christian with that as their justification?

I'm not going to put myself up on a pedestal and say I've never been angry at a religious person for thinking I was going to go to hell, but I do like to think that I've grown up a little since then.

I, honestly, do not get worked up when I'm presented with these sorts of situations anymore. I've grown into the idea that it's just not what I believe. I don't think I'm going to hell, and I don't believe I'll be damned for any reason. I am a good person all around, and if ever God did exist, he would not turn me the cold shoulder.

I don't try to convert anyone from any one religion into seeing "the light", as I do believe that some people genuinely need a God to be happy. Not that this makes a God anymore plausible.
There was some statistic somewhere that said religious people tended to be a bit more optimistic when something negative happened than atheists were... but I digress.

Don't we atheists cross the line too sometimes? Don't a lot of us folk get pretty damn disrespectful as well?

I present to you some evidence:

When I first learned about this guild, I read in someone's signature a banner that said:

Quote:

"I am not weak, I am strong. I am not a lost sheep, wandering in a forest in search of a Shepard. I am a human, master of my own destiny. I am not a lamb of Christ, I am a human of the Way, the Eternal Path. Hear me roar!"

Does this not strike anyone else as antagonistic? As patronizing?
Calling them "lost sheep" and "lambs"?

As I looked through more of the banners, I saw this:

Quote:

"There is no God," The fool says it to his heart. The wise man says it to the world.

I didn't understand this. Haven't the majority of the atheists once said "I don't like their religion being stuffed into my face"? Isn't saying it to the world virtually the same thing? I can't possibly believe that I'm the only one who sees the hypocrisy.

Finally, I present to you fine folk, one of the guild rules.

Quote:

5. You are still expected to try and be respectful of other's beliefs, whether or not they are present in our guild. Support your arguments. If it's useless flaming in Extended Discussion, it's still useless flaming here.

Some of the banners are fairly disrespectful. And they're not just in the guild. They're in people's signatures, offending other people, I'm sure.

You could say, "Well they did it first!" but where do two wrongs make a right? It just fuels the dislike. At least, I believe it does.

You could say, "Religion is stupid though!" but why can't we just be happy with what we believe? Why flaunt it? Because they do?

This isn't a campaign to pull those banners down, or a request for world peace. Or Gaian peace. Or anything like that.
I'm not saying you must respect all religious people, either.

I'm just wondering what you guys think about the atheists who may see themselves at better, or find it okay to disrespect others on the premise that they were disrespected first.

In fact, I'm wondering about whatever you guys think of this. smile

I'm open for any opposing view points. I'm genuinely curious. Thank you for taking the time to read this. ^^ heart  

[hagane danbira]

Personally, I don't believe in the whole "don't shove it down our throats" bit...unless it's in anything paid for by the Government (than it's a question of Division of Church and State, Freedom of Religion, etc.).

I believe that if someone tries to convert you (to which they have the right, under Freedom of Speach), you are fully allowed to try to convert them. The harder they push, the harder you can push back.

The only major difference between a good Christian and a good Atheist is that a good Christian is supposed to "save" as many people as possible; a good Atheist is supposed to stand his/her ground, and fight off anyone who tries to save them.

But that's just my humble opinion.  

[Augusten]

hagane danbira

Personally, I don't believe in the whole "don't shove it down our throats" bit...unless it's in anything paid for by the Government (than it's a question of Division of Church and State, Freedom of Religion, etc.).

I believe that if someone tries to convert you (to which they have the right, under Freedom of Speach), you are fully allowed to try to convert them. The harder they push, the harder you can push back.

The only major difference between a good Christian and a good Atheist is that a good Christian is supposed to "save" as many people as possible; a good Atheist is supposed to stand his/her ground, and fight off anyone who tries to save them.

But that's just my humble opinion.

I can see where it may be one thing to get into an argument with a religious person who did the antagonizing first. But putting an antagonizing banner up that targets all religious people?

I'm not one for fighting someone who tries to fight me, but I do think that if you have to push someone, push the person whose shoved you. Don't just flail around and knock everyone, if you see what I mean? ^^;  

[AnonymouZ]

They themselves call lost sheep and lambs, dude. That's the point, they call themselves that, and pretty much expect everyone to be the same. By saying we are NOT that which they call themselves, we're pretty much saying we are not as weak (lost sheep? as IF) and therefore different... hence the ROAR.

The second banner thing, i think it's pretty much to interpretation, since it's obvious that "missionary atheism" is pretty much non-existent, and instead it'd mean something like precisely your point, but the opposite way. By NOT being a hypocrite and hide among them, and standing up for your opinions. It does not suffice to call YOURSELF, by yourself all alone in your room, an atheist, if you hide it from everyone else. *(and that's MY opinion of what this banner means, not necessarily what it literally means i'm sure)

In any case, yeah. I'm one of those mean dudes. But only when they are either way too arrogant and or dumb. Because i do believe in that phrase from my father: "the weak are there to justify the strong."


wink  

[[The Looney Bin]]

The dinosaurs are returning...

Personally I feel that we need to fight fire with fire.

If a person is hardcore religious and they're voting no on things such as gay rights, abortion, and stem cells then (I feel that) it's our human duty to challenge their beliefs, because since these people vote the way that they do they could/do force people into poverty, horrible medical conditions, death, and many other horrible messes.

Sorry if I got off topic sweatdrop .

But overall I feel that us trying to convert or at least argue with people that are very conservative and vocal about their religion is ok, and when people "shout things to the world" it really just means that we're shouting it to the people that I described above, and the more innocent get caught in the crossfire =/.

...and they want their oil back.

 

[Daffodil the Destroyer]

Augusten - I agree with your idea, but not with the extent to which you apply it.

I hate having religion shoved down my throat as much as the next person, so I don't shove nonreligion down anyone's throat, either. However, in a discussion or debate about these sorts of things (particularly involving why we do or do not believe them), I have no problem airing my ideas and letting a religious person air his as well.

As far as signatures go, I tend not to take offence at religious or nonreligious signatures, unless they're particularly extreme and/or meant to be offensive.

Quote:

"I am not weak, I am strong. I am not a lost sheep, wandering in a forest in search of a Shepard. I am a human, master of my own destiny. I am not a lamb of Christ, I am a human of the Way, the Eternal Path. Hear me roar!"

I really like this quote, actually. Whereas you described it as antagonistic and patronising, I see it as an answer to the bull that theists throw in our faces all the time. It's a declaration of independence, if you will. I am not weak simply because of my species, as many of them insist. I am not a lost sheep searching for a Shepard, as many of them claim non-theists are. I am the master of my own destiny and so is everyone else. On the other hand, I think your description of "antagonistic and patronising" applies to this quote quite well:

Quote:

"There is no God," The fool says it to his heart. The wise man says it to the world.

This quote is arrogant, IMO, and implies that the speaker is able to definitively know whether or not there is a god somewhere out there. Personally, as an agnostic atheist, I don't believe in god due to a lack of suitable evidence - but if I were to be presented with such evidence, I would reconsider my opinions. I think we would all (theists and atheists) be much better off and get along with each other much better if we could all concede that what we know now may not be the be-all and end-all of knowledge about the non/existence of deities.  

[WritelySo]

There are two elements to this: one is the argument about whether it's okay to be the angry, outspoken atheist, the other is the argument about whether we should respect religious viewpoints. I responded to the angry atheist argument elsewhere, here's what I said:

WritelySo

Most religious people have been told that we are atheists because we have turned from god in anger or frustration, and they assume that we are filled with anger and hate. They use the fact that we fight for our rights as "evidence" of our "anger."

Religious dominance in the west is fading. As it fades, atheists and free-thinkers will continue to fight for cultural and legal equality, and - just as has been done with feminists, people of colour and gays - the dominant culture will continue to use that fight as "proof" that we are "hostile" in order to reinforce their dominance and dismiss our legitimate concerns.

Some people feel it's important not to make waves for that very reason. They think that it's a bad idea to reinforce the stereotype of "bitchy feminist" or "hostile black guy" or "whiny homosexual" or "angry atheist." This is how the stereotypes work, they scare us away from voicing our opinions or standing up for ourselves. It's hegemony.

As atheists, we have legitimate concerns about religion and its hold on the cultures we live in. We have the right and personal responsibility to stand up for ourselves, to share our views and to be as vocal about our beliefs as the religious are about theirs. Go and wear a sign too, be an alternate view, atheist "stuck pixel" on your campus. When religious people try to play the "malcontent" card, that is when you ignore them and continue speaking, calmly, rationally and honestly... that is how you resist that stereotype. If you allow yourself to be silenced by it, you are giving it power it doesn't deserve.

As for the issue of "respect," that is such a relative and subjective term as to be pointless to discuss. What is considered polite and respectful varies almost from person to person. I don't consider it "impolite" to criticize or mock religious views, since they are ridiculous and preposterous. It's not unlike ridiculing the idea of believing that 1+1=4. We have as much reason to believe in the existence of gods and supernatural beings as we do to believe in the existence of unicorns. No one hesitates to ridicule the notion of belief in unicorns. Atheism and faith are not equally viable viewpoints. Atheism is rational and faith is fantasy. They do not demand equal respect - encouraging someone to think rationally about religion is not equivalent to encouraging someone to fear hellfire and believe that there's a sky fairy watching if they touch themselves.

We are culturally dominated by religion - which is why atheists are everywhere trying to fight for rational discourse and critical thinking. We joke around about all kinds of things - Michael Jackson, Beorge Bush, WMDs, etc... and yet if someone jokes around about religion, we are somehow supposed to consider them as having crossed a line. This is because we live in a world where religious belief tends to be the norm, where religions expect everyone to live according to their tenets. Always religions are trying to gain more ground and more power. Creationism is not just a ridiculous notion, it's an attempt to elevate a ridiculous notion to the same status as scientific fact. The FLDS was able to get away with its abuses against women and children because society is so hesitant to "judge other people's beliefs." If you are rationally and intelligently raising concerns about the dangers of an antisocial belief system, you are considered "impolite." I say no... we need to be willing to ask questions, to use critical thinking to deconstruct cherished beliefs, and we need to stop allowing this social anxiety about "politeness" to intimidate us.  

[Augusten]

AnonymouZ

They themselves call lost sheep and lambs, dude. That's the point, they call themselves that, and pretty much expect everyone to be the same. By saying we are NOT that which they call themselves, we're pretty much saying we are not as weak (lost sheep? as IF) and therefore different... hence the ROAR.

The second banner thing, i think it's pretty much to interpretation, since it's obvious that "missionary atheism" is pretty much non-existent, and instead it'd mean something like precisely your point, but the opposite way. By NOT being a hypocrite and hide among them, and standing up for your opinions. It does not suffice to call YOURSELF, by yourself all alone in your room, an atheist, if you hide it from everyone else. *(and that's MY opinion of what this banner means, not necessarily what it literally means i'm sure)

In any case, yeah. I'm one of those mean dudes. But only when they are either way too arrogant and or dumb. Because i do believe in that phrase from my father: "the weak are there to justify the strong."


wink

I've never heard a person call themselves a lost sheep, but I'll take your word for it for the sake of this response.
The banner (as I read it) seems to say it's message mockingly. Or insultingly. It sounds like "We're better than you because you're religious" and I can see that perhaps that would be offensive to someone.

And how is missionary atheism nonexistent? confused
There are tons of out-spoken atheists who want to convert the religious folk.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding?  

[Augusten]

[The Looney Bin]

Personally I feel that we need to fight fire with fire.

If a person is hardcore religious and they're voting no on things such as gay rights, abortion, and stem cells then (I feel that) it's our human duty to challenge their beliefs, because since these people vote the way that they do they could/do force people into poverty, horrible medical conditions, death, and many other horrible messes.

Sorry if I got off topic sweatdrop .

But overall I feel that us trying to convert or at least argue with people that are very conservative and vocal about their religion is ok, and when people "shout things to the world" it really just means that we're shouting it to the people that I described above, and the more innocent get caught in the crossfire =/.

But why spray everyone with the fire? It's not necessary for the "innocent" to be caught in it. It's not necessary to put up the insulting banners, I mean.

I've never seen an insulting signature from an average religious person. Only the fanatics.
I think the same can generally be said about atheists. I think certain things make us look bad, just as certain things make them look bad.
So instead of being the quiet group that doesn't make a scene, this "fire with fire" thing just fuels it, doesn't it?  

[Augusten]

Daffodil the Destroyer

Augusten - I agree with your idea, but not with the extent to which you apply it.

I hate having religion shoved down my throat as much as the next person, so I don't shove nonreligion down anyone's throat, either. However, in a discussion or debate about these sorts of things (particularly involving why we do or do not believe them), I have no problem airing my ideas and letting a religious person air his as well.

Oh, I certainly don't disagree with religious debate.
But I find some things that certain atheists say to be hypocritical. Unnecessary.

Writelyso: I don't promote the idea of silence from atheists. But I don't like the idea of being as pushy as they are about it. Persistent? Fine. But verbally abusive? Not so much.

As far as "encouraging someone to to think rationally" goes, I don't think calling them weak lambs as the banner does really does that succesfully. It probably just aggravates them. Or makes them want to ignore you. If I were religious, I'd just ignore people who were just going to throw insults.
It doesn't get the point cleanly across.
Just as when you have a fight with someone, if they're screaming in your face, you don't generally want to take into consideration what they're saying.

Well maybe some people will say that they listen to an angry screaming person. Maybe some people really do. I don't know~ x3

But it doesn't sound encouraging to me, is all.  

[Teoka]

Interesting points, but I figure as long as we are the minority, and it's legal, our banners online can say whatever we want.

I used to be bad with not pissing off religious people. xd I've learned to keep my atheism quiet unless someone starts a conversation or asks me about my beliefs. But that's just because I don't know when to stop, sometimes. If it's someone close to me or someone I don't want to make an enemy, I'll often refuse to debate them. But hey, if they insist, it's better to carry oneself calmly and rationally. Though I should work on being less unconsciously arrogant. sweatdrop Nobody's perfect, ne?

It's definitely important not to actively go around trying to convert or belittling someone because of their religious convictions. But we can't stay completely silent when their actions are harming others. Just as Thomas Jefferson, one of the "founding fathers" of the US, believed, people can believe what they want. However, if they act on those beliefs in a way that harms others, that's when they must be stopped.  

[Augusten]

Teoka

Interesting points, but I figure as long as we are the minority, and it's legal, our banners online can say whatever we want.

I was pointing out that it's in the guild rules not to disrespect others, (considering they are banners for the guild and thus representing us) inside the guild or out. I find that some of the banners are antagonistic, is all.
Not that we don't have freedom of speech, or that it's illegal.
Or that they should be removed. xD  

[Sanguvixen]

Life isn't a utopia because utopias don't exist.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but it doesn't exactly matter anyway. If you don't show the ability to be equal to the others side they'll walk all over you. That is not to say that I personally advocate aggression or being patronizing or antagonizing but you have understand certain things.

Religious people shove their religion into the throat of others just by opening their mouths and talking about their religion. Any time they are very pious about it it is to be commended. That is expected in our society.

When an atheist is open and forthright about their feelings they are considered rude, patronizing, antagonizing and so on. I don't think is right. If a person wants to make a statement in their signature to show how they feel about what they don't believe in...who are you or I to judge them?

Maybe you should ask a person why the choose to have such a signature before automatically assuming that it is both patronizing or antagonizing. They just might be able to explain the reasoning behind it that would suggest otherwise.


I think people need to get off their high-horse and stop telling us that we are wrong, and we are rude and so on...it's not that we are rude or that we think we are better than others. It is that we dare to be as others are that is taken as an insult when no insult was intended. It is the xenophobia that so many theists have that make them demonize us when we are only trying to do what they are so free to do, which is to proclaim that we are proud of what we are, and what we believe in, and that we wish to talk about or feelings and thoughts of theists and gods. If that comes across as rude or disrespectful...so be it.
 

[Sanguvixen]

Oh...and for reference that first quote came from a discussion within the guild. It was in response to how some theists were treating one of the members if my memory serves me correct, and that quip is what he wrote.

I turned around and turned it into a signature that was put up in the banners area. It's not a spontaneous thing, I'll have you know. There is a story and reason behind that one.  

[hagane danbira]

Augusten

hagane danbira

Personally, I don't believe in the whole "don't shove it down our throats" bit...unless it's in anything paid for by the Government (than it's a question of Division of Church and State, Freedom of Religion, etc.).

I believe that if someone tries to convert you (to which they have the right, under Freedom of Speach), you are fully allowed to try to convert them. The harder they push, the harder you can push back.

The only major difference between a good Christian and a good Atheist is that a good Christian is supposed to "save" as many people as possible; a good Atheist is supposed to stand his/her ground, and fight off anyone who tries to save them.

But that's just my humble opinion.

I can see where it may be one thing to get into an argument with a religious person who did the antagonizing first. But putting an antagonizing banner up that targets all religious people?

I'm not one for fighting someone who tries to fight me, but I do think that if you have to push someone, push the person whose shoved you. Don't just flail around and knock everyone, if you see what I mean? ^^;

Dude, Atheism (at least the "hard/explicit" kind) IS a religion, founded on the principles of the lack of belief of God/belief in no God(s). Thus, an atheist is a religious person. A non-religious person is someone who doesn't give a flaming Belgium either way.