Four Elements

[Ommar_Ramirez]

Greetings:

I have several doubts about the four elements, because almost everybody speak about elemental spitrits as existing, scentient and individual beings who take the form of one of the four elements, But I have seen the use of the Four Elements only as symbols of human's attributes, as follows:

Earth - Physical Body, armony between sensorial perception and material forms.
Water - Emotional or astral Body, desires and feelings.
Air - Mental Body, Intellect, and abstract thought.
Fire - Relation with ethereal body, transformer of energy and vitalizer.

I also saw a simpler description that is very similar to the symbolism used on the Sphinx:

Earth - Physical Strenght - Bull
Water - Will - Human
Air - Knowledge - Eagle
Fire - Courage - Lion

That would be related to the four Magician's virtues: Knowledge, Courage, Will and Secrecy.

I have come to think that the four elements are only symbol variations of the Sphinx symbols.

But if the F.E. are only symbols, then there won't be any elemntal spirits. I know, a great deal about magic is faith and forms of thought, andf sure out there are a lot of invisible beings with a distinct wave frequency than most of us (including animals, etc.) but there's have to be some definite standard.

Who is willing to help? I expect your comments.  

[Rustig]

Ommar_Dyrssen

Greetings:

I have several doubts about the four elements, because almost everybody speak about elemental spitrits as existing, scentient and individual beings who take the form of one of the four elements, But I have seen the use of the Four Elements only as symbols of human's attributes, as follows:

Earth - Physical Body, armony between sensorial perception and material forms.
Water - Emotional or astral Body, desires and feelings.
Air - Mental Body, Intellect, and abstract thought.
Fire - Relation with ethereal body, transformer of energy and vitalizer.

I also saw a simpler description that is very similar to the symbolism used on the Sphinx:

Earth - Physical Strenght - Bull
Water - Will - Human
Air - Knowledge - Eagle
Fire - Courage - Lion

That would be related to the four Magician's virtues: Knowledge, Courage, Will and Secrecy.

I have come to think that the four elements are only symbol variations of the Sphinx symbols.

But if the F.E. are only symbols, then there won't be any elemntal spirits. I know, a great deal about magic is faith and forms of thought, andf sure out there are a lot of invisible beings with a distinct wave frequency than most of us (including animals, etc.) but there's have to be some definite standard.

Who is willing to help? I expect your comments.

Why do you assume that being symbolic and being actual entites are mutually exclusive?

A /lot/ of different phenonema can be described in some ways as being symbols, in some ways being entities, in some ways being human psychological processes... but many magickians have found that classing a phenonema as solely one or the other is unhelpfully limiting, hence the four models of magic (Spirit, Energy, Psychological, Informational). As a bit of a self-plug, I've discussed this very same thing on one of my YouTube videos.

Moreover, you've seen that symbols have a tendency to resonate throughout different systems. The Classical Elements system is notoriously efficient at being able to relate to different systems (astrological signs, the Humours, the states of matter, Strength, Intelligence, Emotion and Will and so on). Also consider the Tree of Life, and how many different magickal systems have been mapped to it, or how the demons of the Goetia can be ascribed to different elements, star signs and so on. But just because this linkage occurs does not necessarily eliminate the idea of elemental beings being discrete entities. Try summoning one of them and seeing what turns up.  

[Ommar_Ramirez]

Great answer Mitsh!!!

Anyone else? And please, take the poll!!!  

[El Diosa de la Tigre]

The elements are just that, earth water air and fire, but when you work with the sort magick that uses their energy, you are calling on the spirits that are the elements. Otherwise, you're just working with hot coals or clumps of dirt!  

[D_Marx]

I would say your elements are incomplete on the actual scale. It's nice to think there would be Earth, Air, Fire, and Water [Dosha] but there are many Chinese element charts are coming up that go: Earth, Fire, Wood, Water, and Metal. Wind can't be an actual element depending on what you're looking for, but if we're thinking in terms of Dosha [astrological significance], the first would be a correct list.

Plus, in my opinion, the elements aren't connected to an animal, and I'm not about to shove a paper inquiry into the face of a lion. There are instances in history that tied cats in as protection, crows to magic and creation, deer to sensitivity and being in-tune.

If anything, people see what they want and if the lion helps them with the transition, bring the little guy in.  

[Jokoria17]

I personally believe there are spirits in each of the classical elements, spirit included.

Although I guess if symbolism floats your boat, go ahead. Just be respectful toward of. Don't go throwing trash into a river. Whether you think of it as a spirit or no, I doubt your water magick will matter if you don't care about water.

I'm not saying be a green-freak (there's green, which is great, and green-freak, aka obsessive) and sit there and clean out the world and attack people that throw pennies into water. Just don't make it worse.  

[abarrach]

Sorry for joining the conversation so late.

Not going to really answer your question, and going to be a little pedantic...

Ommar_Ramirez

I also saw a simpler description that is very similar to the symbolism used on the Sphinx:

Earth - Physical Strenght - Bull
Water - Will - Human
Air - Knowledge - Eagle
Fire - Courage - Lion

Actually, the Sphynx was composed of Human (female), Eagle, and Lion, but no Bull. You might also see a snake for a tale on some of the art, not sure if it shows up in the myth itself.

The creatures you listed also happen to match the four fixed signs of the zodiac. While the elements you mapped them to makes sense, the astrological attribution is as follows :
Earth - Taurus - Bull
Fire - Leo - Lion
Water - Scorpio - Scorpion AND Eagle (and Phoenix too!)
Air - Aquarius - Man

Most people don't know that Eagle is one of the symbols for Scorpio (admittedly, I don't know how this got to be -- seems to me someone just needed to shoehorn an Eagle in the Zodiac...), so without that context they'll make the logical attribution of Air. But, when in this foursome, Eagle belongs to Water.

And only to add to the confusion, people see the word Aquarius, recognize Aqua to mean Water, so they think it's a Water sign. However, Aquarius is the Water Bearer. In the Zodiac, he's an Air sign.

More trivia : This foursome often appear together. E.g.
- in the Tarot, they are in the four corners of The Wheel of Fortune and The World cards.
- in the Bible, Ezekiel has a vision of a chariot with four creatures, each having four faces (one of each of the animals) and four wings
- later in the Bible, the book of Revelation describes different creatures; 4 of them, each having one of the animals' head and having 6 wings
- they also appear in Muslim text as angels, although I don't know enough to give context.  

[abarrach]

Now regarding the elements themselves, be aware these 4 are the one's from Western philosophy/religion. As D_Marx pointed out, Eastern cultures has a different set (5 of them). And modern science has yet a different set containing well over 100 elements.

The four elements, sometimes called Platonic elements (because our earliest records of this come from Plato) have been mapped to a lot of different groups of things, some of which you've already pointed out.

Examples of other attributions :
- Directions
-- North (E), East (W), South (F), West (A)
-- (many other combination)

- Card suites
-- Swords/Spades (A or F), Wands/Clubs (F or A), Cups/Hearts (W), Coins/Diamonds (E)

- Systems in the body
-- Blood (W), Lungs (A), Nerves (F), Digestive system (E)

The list goes on...

One thing to note however, is that there is no single standard. Where there's disagreement, people will choose what makes sense to them, or what they learned first, or what others in their circle have chosen.

Regarding elemental spirits, I remain completely agnostic. By that I mean, I believe in the possibility of their existence and influence, but not in their absolute existence or inexistence. The absolute in non-commitment. I lean more on the symbolic side than the literal side of magic and spirituality.  

[Lovely-Avarice]

abarrach

Sorry for joining the conversation so late.

Not going to really answer your question, and going to be a little pedantic...

Ommar_Ramirez

I also saw a simpler description that is very similar to the symbolism used on the Sphinx:

Earth - Physical Strenght - Bull
Water - Will - Human
Air - Knowledge - Eagle
Fire - Courage - Lion

Actually, the Sphynx was composed of Human (female), Eagle, and Lion, but no Bull. You might also see a snake for a tale on some of the art, not sure if it shows up in the myth itself.

The creatures you listed also happen to match the four fixed signs of the zodiac. While the elements you mapped them to makes sense, the astrological attribution is as follows :
Earth - Taurus - Bull
Fire - Leo - Lion
Water - Scorpio - Scorpion AND Eagle (and Phoenix too!)
Air - Aquarius - Man

Most people don't know that Eagle is one of the symbols for Scorpio (admittedly, I don't know how this got to be -- seems to me someone just needed to shoehorn an Eagle in the Zodiac...), so without that context they'll make the logical attribution of Air. But, when in this foursome, Eagle belongs to Water.

And only to add to the confusion, people see the word Aquarius, recognize Aqua to mean Water, so they think it's a Water sign. However, Aquarius is the Water Bearer. In the Zodiac, he's an Air sign.

More trivia : This foursome often appear together. E.g.
- in the Tarot, they are in the four corners of The Wheel of Fortune and The World cards.
- in the Bible, Ezekiel has a vision of a chariot with four creatures, each having four faces (one of each of the animals) and four wings
- later in the Bible, the book of Revelation describes different creatures; 4 of them, each having one of the animals' head and having 6 wings
- they also appear in Muslim text as angels, although I don't know enough to give context.

I'm not the best with discussing elemental meanings or giving definitive answers about what elements are.. but one thing i do know is astrology.


>_> i know that eagles can't really be put in the Scorpio slot. Scorpio is a water sign and represents deep murky water. we're talking like water you can't see the bottom. eagles probably fit best with Aquarius if we're talking water signs. Aquarius is fresh flowing water and intellectual freedom. also what does a phoenix have to do with *water* they are reborn from flame.. i would but them with Sagittarius probably first and for most or maybe Capricorn ( earth sign) simply because it's ruled by Saturn which brings about change.  

[Taigamma]

Actually the Aquarius is an air sign, not a water sign. The name confuses many as its root is misleading.

The story of Aquarius was that he was a beautiful man that Zeus loved for his looks and made him a servant who brought him water, but when the man finally rebelled Zeus saw his errors and made him into a constellation or something like that. Other than his pitcher, nothing of him was related to water.  

[abarrach]

VixenxVittoria

I'm not the best with discussing elemental meanings or giving definitive answers about what elements are.. but one thing i do know is astrology.


>_> i know that eagles can't really be put in the Scorpio slot. Scorpio is a water sign and represents deep murky water. we're talking like water you can't see the bottom. eagles probably fit best with Aquarius if we're talking water signs. Aquarius is fresh flowing water and intellectual freedom. also what does a phoenix have to do with *water* they are reborn from flame.. i would but them with Sagittarius probably first and for most or maybe Capricorn ( earth sign) simply because it's ruled by Saturn which brings about change.

Note that I never actually said that I completely agree with the tradition of associating Eagle to Scorpio (nor Phoenix for that matter). I'm not the one making this up. Just Google "Eagle Zodiac" (not using the word Scorpio here), and even before you start clicking on the links you see that what comes up is all Scorpio related. When you actually click on the links, you'll see, it's not just coincidence.

http://thezodiac.com/eagle.htm
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dictionary/eagle.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpio_(astrology)

One explanation I've heard is that Scorpio is not only the sign of Death and Rebirth, but also Evolution. Scorpio people have an opportunity to grow out of the Scorpionic stage, into an Eagle stage, and eventually Phoenix stage.

Upon reading some of these links, I found another possible explanation. The eagle was added Scorpio because it works well with the visions of Ezekiel.

I don't know... you don't have to agree with it, but this is the current state of affairs as far associations.

And no, in spite of it's name, Aquarius is not a Water sign. It's an Air sign.  

[abarrach]

Cain Elite

Actually the Aquarius is an air sign, not a water sign. The name confuses many as its root is misleading.

The story of Aquarius was that he was a beautiful man that Zeus loved for his looks and made him a servant who brought him water, but when the man finally rebelled Zeus saw his errors and made him into a constellation or something like that. Other than his pitcher, nothing of him was related to water.

Kind of like a modern day pool boy xp  

[Taigamma]

abarrach

Cain Elite

Actually the Aquarius is an air sign, not a water sign. The name confuses many as its root is misleading.

The story of Aquarius was that he was a beautiful man that Zeus loved for his looks and made him a servant who brought him water, but when the man finally rebelled Zeus saw his errors and made him into a constellation or something like that. Other than his pitcher, nothing of him was related to water.

Kind of like a modern day pool boy xp

Pretty much but with the husband cheating this time. XD