Healthcare Reform

[otawara]

I'm sure you've all heard of this issue. Well, our beloved president Mr. Obama has decided that the government needs control of healthcare. The states individually were doing perfectly fine without this... You know, Mr. Obama is bordering on Communism. I remember a small island that started off like this before veering off into Communism.... Ever heard of Cuba?


Your thoughts?  

[Latopazora]

did you know they want to make a certain amount of Tylenol a perscription drug?  

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

Ridiculous. Nowhere does it say anywhere in any law that healthcare is supposed to be mandatory for employers to offer, nor does it say anywhere that Healthcare is supposed to be handled on a Federal Level, let alone State level in the first place.

Ah, the glories of Corporatism redefined.  

[Latopazora]

Vasilius Konstantinos

Ridiculous. Nowhere does it say anywhere in any law that healthcare is supposed to be mandatory for employers to offer, nor does it say anywhere that Healthcare is supposed to be handled on a Federal Level, let alone State level in the first place.

Ah, the glories of Corporatism redefined.

we don't need laws when there are unions panting to get into nonunion businesses. But regardless, if there aren't any laws, I'm sure the legislator will make sure there is a law.  

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

AH, Unions. Welcome friends to stage two Socialism.  

[Rainbowfied Mouse]

otawara

I remember a small island that started off like this before veering off into Communism.... Ever heard of Cuba?

*decides to start here for a historical inaccuracy* The communist movement in Cuba started nothing like this red scare you are speaking of in America. It was a revolt led by guerrilla fighters, and if I remember correctly they were from Argentina. It was very very violent, and ended in bloodshed, and many attempts to regain their freedom.

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Ridiculous. Nowhere does it say anywhere in any law that healthcare is supposed to be mandatory for employers to offer, nor does it say anywhere that Healthcare is supposed to be handled on a Federal Level, let alone State level in the first place.
Ah, the glories of Corporatism redefined.

The law has room for amendments to the constitution. It was the founding fathers' glorious tactic to keep up with a changing world.

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we don't need laws when there are unions panting to get into nonunion businesses. But regardless, if there aren't any laws, I'm sure the legislator will make sure there is a law.

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AH, Unions. Welcome friends to stage two Socialism.

Unions have been around since the late 1800s when monopolies were treating their employees horribly, a lot has changed since then. The idea of unions is okay with me, however when it comes the "right to work" I also agree with that. We can't expect corporations to be polite when their whole purpose of existence is money. And, Unions is generally considered stage one of communism/socialism society.



Aside from that, I really can't say anything, I don't see any links to articles that I can read and understand exactly what you are talking about.  

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

Stage one is usually nationalization. You decide where we nationalize.

Unions had their day. They did what they did well, at one time. Ethics laws in place now have the businesses under control. Unions are no longer necessary, and we can see the damage they have done explicitly in the auto industry with the higher costs and the lousy work done in the big three for many, many years. The Unions are also the largest lobbying group in Washington, paying out millions each year to keep a stranglehold on corporate America and ensuring to some businesses that we remain not a Capitalist nation, but a Corporatist nation.  

[Lord Bitememan]

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and we can see the damage they have done explicitly in the auto industry with the higher costs and the lousy work done in the big three for many, many years.

I wouldn't peg that as the case. The most damaging things in the union contracts were health care for both workers and retirees. US automakers had to pay that out, but Japanese and German automakers didn't since it was provided by the government. In that respect one might view Japanese and German automakers as benefiting from subsidies with which US automakers had to compete (after all, both sets of workers got health care, it's just in the US companies paid for it, in the other countries it was the government).

As to the quality of union work, nobody was complaining about it in the 1990s when you couldn't keep an American SUV on the lot for more than five minutes. The auto companies were no less union then than they are now.  

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

So you think it was acceptable what the UAW did to Chevrolet in 1934 then?  

[Lord Bitememan]

Don't you think that's a bit old to be bringing into a discussion on the modern state of the auto industry in the US?  

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

When it shows the vile repercussions of what in essence has gone on today, it is very discussion-worthy. Considering their actions and the Feds backing the UAW at that time expressing an intention of nationalizing the industry, it is remarkably like what we are going through today, thereofre it is worth bringing up now.  

[Lord Bitememan]

I think you're confusing the 1934 Toledo Auto-Lite Strike with the 1935 Flint Sit-Down Strike. Addressing the Auto-Lite Strike, federal intervention was brought in exclusively because the country was facing the threat of a general strike. Forcing the auto companies to agree to certain conditions in exchange for receiving federal money to stay in business is not comparable to that situation and is not, frankly, tantamount to nationalization. You'll notice nearly every example cited of the supposed nationalization of the auto industry pertains to GM and Chrysler, and Ford is strangely omitted. Difference? Ford isn't taking money. Once Obama starts talking about the dispensation of ownership of Ford, it will be nationalization.  

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

The Union was fighting to be recognized as well as increase their income by 20%. The UAW, recently demanded that they receive additional income and increased benefits, as if making $55.00 hr. in this economy is bad enough(this is the average wage of the middle-line workers at my Father-In-Law's job with GM, about one-third of the workers). Oddly, the one who made the comment that Unions are not the problem but are the solution, after indirectly seizing General Motors made the statement that wages, for the duration of this crisis are going to go down some. I predict a strike in the future due to the words of our current administration. Lets see how this nationalizing of GM goes.

I do consider it relevant, what happened long ago simply because history has a sense of repeating itself. Does anyone see any relation to FDR or am I on something? N(I)RA anyone? Blue Eagle? Hyperinflation?  

[Lord Bitememan]

When the Unions in the US were fighting to be recognized it was unthinkable to ship your manufacturing to China, today it is a likely result of union agitation. Companies have the benefit of a broadly modernized world, as opposed to the 1930s where the US was a much more laissez faire country compared to the Marxist drifting Europe. Today the Communists are more unrestrained capitalists than the capitalists are, and you can only push the companies so far before they relocate their headquarters to the Caribbean and their manufacturing to China and south Asia. The situations are just not congruent in modern circumstances.

As to the parallels between Obama and FDR, Obama lacks the mandate and their have been too many demonstrable advances in economics to ever truly repeat NRA. The stimulus is a one time thing. The quiet chirps about a new stimulus have all but been removed from the table by the Democratic congressional leadership, and there's no way the blue dog caucus could back it and face their constituents in November 2010. They're already going to pay a blood price for the first failed stimulus. NRA resulted in ongoing expenditure, the stimulus is over once the money is up. There are some similarities, but beyond similarities the situations are just not analogous.  

[Vasilius Konstantinos]

I hope you are right on your predictions. I really, really hope so.

Another stimulus and this administration's overbearing approaches towards making outright lies like transparency with allocated funds from the first package as well as not admitting to faults like pork in bills is getting very scary to be honest. Its really disgraceful. I have never witnessed anything like this in any other administration and I think you and I both have been around long enough to note this. Times have changed, politically and socially, and somethings should not change, like dignity in the Oval Office.

Sorry, a little off topic there.