The ethics of manipulating thoughts.

[Magus Initi]

When asked outright, many of us would say that messing with other peoples' minds is wrong. But is it, really? If it is, are there different "levels" of wrongness, or is every act of manipulation just as wrong as the others?

And how are we to differentiate between manipulation, and simple influence? Would it depend of what results of our actions? And how many times have you influenced another, simply on a whim, or even accidentally?

For example, while at a fair recently, I decided to flex my psychic muscles on one of those people that try to guess your weight/age/birthday/etc. I paid the man two dollars to guess my birth month. "October october october october october october!" was the word I shoved toward his mind. He wrote his guess down on a piece of paper, and showed it to the crowd, then asked my birth month. "July." I replied. "Oh, so close!" he said, and showed me the paper with the word "Oct." scrolled across it. I chose my prize and walked away.

Now, the way I see it, neither of us were harmed by this small action. I gave him two dollars, which is probably more than what my prize was worth, and I gained more confidence in my psychic prowess.

But does that make it alright? Does the lack of negative effects excuse the invasion of someone's mind, and the influence of someone's thoughts? Especially since the mind is meant to be such a very private and intimate place.

And what about when you are trying to send messages to people you know? "Mom, I want pizza/other food," and "I'm at the garden/pond/etc." and "Call me" are examples of common messages in my family. But isn't the sending of thoughts, which the receiver often believes to be their own, the same as my influencing the man to think of october?

What about your own mind? Do you take precautions, or know techniques against mental invasion? I know I do.  

[Cunning Witch Angus]

Interesting how that works isn't it? Anyway, I feel that if it needs to be done then by all means manipulate the mind. It is the same argument with cursing or magic in general really.

No need? No magic I say.

However, the mind is stronger than you think. One can not, unless they are very good, will someone to kill themselves, or anything else really that they wouldn't already do. If, for example, someone is having thoughts of killing themselves, really serious thoughts, there is the possibility that one can make them kill themselves by planting the actual idea into their heads.

A little morbid perhaps, but this is the occult, all avenues must be looked at. Have you ever was Derren Brown? He is a mentalist and a magician and he, through the use of NLP, does some pretty amazing things. Personaly, because I love words, I usually manipulate people through words and chess with people. Cruel I know, but I only do it sometimes, When I was young I did it always. I was a horrible young boy.

I am concious of every word that passes through my brain. I talk with myself mostly and this has developed a second person that helps me make decisions. It also helps me call bullshit and I am wonderful for reading people. I try to stay aware of every thought and I clear my mind every day.  

[Just Tsuki]

when it comes to manipulating/influencing people's mind i believe that you should excercise strict rules upon what you do in this area as the mind is one of the most important and private things a person has.

personally, i think that it should only be used for comunication and in the direst circumstances.  

[Elfshaman]

well if it is an accident you really can't call it wrong. i mean if you accidentally manipulate someone then maybe you should work on your control but no one can really tell you to stop.

as for sending messages i think that depends on your methodology (not sure if that is a word but you get the point). if you were to implant the memory that you had asked for food then all you're doing is giving them a choice. does your mother know about your abilities? if she does then plant the thought as if you were asking her right then.

But overall, just like with any other kind of magic i have one general rule. Don't use magic for other except under a few circumstances. they are a danger to me, someone i care about, or themselves. otherwise just ask permission. that's my rule. i was talking with a friend of a friend after a party and wanted to get to know her better but had only met her maybe an hour before so i asked if i could touch her mind to learn more about her pesonality. she said yes and was ok with it. so if you ask it makes it better  

[Magus Initi]

Elfshaman

if you were to implant the memory that you had asked for food then all you're doing is giving them a choice. does your mother know about your abilities? if she does then plant the thought as if you were asking her right then.

Well, it's really not specifically "my abilities." My family knows, because we all do it. Messages are not sent and received in the form of "memories" but as a feeling or impulsion. It ha never been something that we have had to try to do, just something we have always done, so I guess it's something that we don't really think twice about. It's really normal on my dad's side of the family, but not so much on my mom's.

I guess that's part of the reason why I posted this question. Generating impulses in other people has been so common throughout my life, that I will often do it without really thinking about it. However, when I went to the fair and actually got something out of it, I almost felt as though I had cheated.

But you know what, I have to guess that the guy that was running the thing probably received my word so easily because he was probably trying to invade my mind.  

[Jokoria17]

Really I don't see anything wrong with this, unless you want to do something ridiculous like cause that person harm by thinking "fall down the stairs, fall down the stairs".

Also, it's just a harmless game. All you get out of it is a cheap toy and he gets your money. So really, just don't worry about it.

I do see some hints of them trying to guess your weight. And can't you just lie to them if they get it right? I'd do that.  

[Magus Initi]

Mihi Cura Futuri

Really I don't see anything wrong with this, unless you want to do something ridiculous like cause that person harm by thinking "fall down the stairs, fall down the stairs".

Also, it's just a harmless game. All you get out of it is a cheap toy and he gets your money. So really, just don't worry about it.

I do see some hints of them trying to guess your weight. And can't you just lie to them if they get it right? I'd do that.

Well when it comes to the weight guessing, they always have a scale. A big public scale for everyone to see! D: XD  

[J. Dragonhater]

This is a good question because my first response would be to shout 'you can't do that, it's always wrong and inmoral!' but...

Okay, we use verbal and nonverbal clues to manipulate people both in intentional and uninentional ways. We use cleverness and subterfuge and outright confusion to manipulate people (take a look at any bill in congress right now, so much is going on it's hard to understand any of it). So perhaps there isn't something extremely wrong in it, afterall isn't this just an expansion of what we all do anyways?

I think this sort of manipulation is a lot like hypnotic and subliminal messasges, you can't change a person too much and can't force them to do something completely against their will.

I won't intentionally do it. It's a grey area of magic for me. I don't practice any protection against it either, except for when I am sitting in at a test but that's not spefically to prevent other people's influence rather to keep my focus and block out stray energies and calm me down.  

[Chieftain Twilight]

they way i see it, whether you are psychically influencing someone's mind, or verbally influencing their thoughts, or physically influencing their emotions, or whatever other way you manipulate someone, the fact of the matter is that you are capable of it. it is only "right" or "wrong" for yourself depending on how you feel about it. morality and ethics are subjective things. one more personal than the other, but both based on non-universal concepts.

to put it in familiar terms, as Jack Sparrow said "there are only two rules: what a man can do, and what a man can't do."

i strive to live by a personal code of Honour. not because i think it's any more righteous than anyone elses, but because i personally feel that it gives me purpose. manipulations are not against my personal moral code. some other things which are against my moral code might make manipulating certain people under certain circumstances dishonourable of myself, but that's a different matter altogether.

my point is, what is ethical or moral is ultimately up to the person judging it. it's completely subjective.

now, as for whether or not i keep shields up, and am guarded, the answer is a resounding "of course i do/am!" i very much like to keep my privacy and my self-control. i am the only thing i can control, so why allow others to manipulate me into doing things that i normally wouldn't want to do? or thinking things i didn't decide to think on my own? it's just invasive. and as anyone with the gall to do so has the right to manipulate me, so too do i have the right to defend myself.

or, actually, to me more acurrate in my interpretation, nobody has any "rights" to do anything or another. we just do what we are willing and capable of doing, end of the story (not what my stepdad believes, but that doesn't realy matter to me).  

[Breakfast Sex]

Hmmm... i don't actually know how i feel about this. lol. Only because I do it kinda daily..LOL... sort of... i push thoughts to certain people and they get my message ^^

Normally, i only do it to get my point across... lol... ehh, i don't think it's bad... as long as your not doing anything really bad to the person... so what's wrong?

I have a group of my friends who do practice magick... but i think there's only like 4 of us now..? xD Cuz i think the others converted to another religion.

Hmmm...i actually don't have any rules concerning this. LOL....

I normally shield myself but often times, i let other magick users project their thoughts to me.. =) COMMUNICATE together... hehee... ^^
especially within friends... i find it easier =)  

[astrenose]

Manipulation has been going on since mankind could communicate. Paranormal involvement doesn't change the concept. We're still swaying (not controlling) another's free will for a personal agenda. Whether it is right or wrong comes down to intent. If your manipulation only leads to mutual gain, it'd be awfully difficult to perceive as wrong. However, if the action is taken with a malicious intent, then we have crossed the thresh hold of morality. Even if you have something bad happens as a result of your manipulation, good intent (as determined by the majority of the people and the status of said people's welfare) means you did the right thing. An example would be pushing a person out of the way of a car but they stumble off a cliff as a result. At least you tried.  

[Obscurus]

I've been leaning a lot to the left hand lately so take that for what it's worth.

I do what feels right to me. I don't try to pin it down with hard and fast ethics. If it feels good then I'm good with it, if it feels bad then I don't do it. Purest form of morality (and therefore, ethics) that I know of.

This said, if I determine that someone is deserving or worthy of manipulation then I'll do it (even though I can't really remember the last time I've made a formal attempt at such a thing). Most of the time I feel like it's just getting out of the person's way and letting them hang themselves, so to speak. People don't do things they don't want to do on some level.

There's always the wisdom of Alhazred too. See my signature. rofl