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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:53 pm
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:35 pm
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:40 pm
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:22 am
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:03 am
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:27 am
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Actually, this is an argument that I fell for the first time I heard it, but once it was explained to me why it was wrong, I realized it is really, really dumb.
Ever heard of Pascal's Wager? It's a classic, and it's so easily refutable. It goes like this:
If you don't believe in God and He doesn't exist, then nothing happens. However, if you believe in God and He does exist, you'll go to Heaven! If you don't believe in God and He does exist, you'll go to Hell. If you believe in God and He doesn't exist, you've lost nothing. If you don't believe in God and He does exist, you've lost everything. Conclusion: Bet on the safe side and believe in God.
There are so many ways that this doesn't work... Let me know if you need an explanation, tho, cause I did the first time I heard it.
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:13 am
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alteregoivy Actually, this is an argument that I fell for the first time I heard it, but once it was explained to me why it was wrong, I realized it is really, really dumb. Ever heard of Pascal's Wager? It's a classic, and it's so easily refutable. It goes like this: If you don't believe in God and He doesn't exist, then nothing happens. However, if you believe in God and He does exist, you'll go to Heaven! If you don't believe in God and He does exist, you'll go to Hell. If you believe in God and He doesn't exist, you've lost nothing. If you don't believe in God and He does exist, you've lost everything. Conclusion: Bet on the safe side and believe in God. There are so many ways that this doesn't work... Let me know if you need an explanation, tho, cause I did the first time I heard it. Excuse me, but it goes a little differently. Pascal's Wager doesn't say "if you believe in god then god exists". It would be too naive for someone who invented a prototype computer and probability theory, wouldn't it? smile It's not supposed to be a proof of god's existence, it's just a pragmatical argument. And just like most of such "arguments" it will only work for you if you see benefits in what it states as benefits. See http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/ for details razz
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:15 pm
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Raticiel alteregoivy Actually, this is an argument that I fell for the first time I heard it, but once it was explained to me why it was wrong, I realized it is really, really dumb. Ever heard of Pascal's Wager? It's a classic, and it's so easily refutable. It goes like this: If you don't believe in God and He doesn't exist, then nothing happens. However, if you believe in God and He does exist, you'll go to Heaven! If you don't believe in God and He does exist, you'll go to Hell. If you believe in God and He doesn't exist, you've lost nothing. If you don't believe in God and He does exist, you've lost everything. Conclusion: Bet on the safe side and believe in God. There are so many ways that this doesn't work... Let me know if you need an explanation, tho, cause I did the first time I heard it. Excuse me, but it goes a little differently. Pascal's Wager doesn't say "if you believe in god then god exists". It would be too naive for someone who invented a prototype computer and probability theory, wouldn't it? smile It's not supposed to be a proof of god's existence, it's just a pragmatical argument. And just like most of such "arguments" it will only work for you if you see benefits in what it states as benefits. See http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/ for details razz
I think you need to read through that post again... IF you believe, AND he exists, THEN...
sounds like BASIC...
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:46 pm
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:50 pm
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:03 pm
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:52 pm
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Raticiel My, sorry, my mistake again. sweatdrop didn't notice that little "and" whee well, still I think it's just pragmatic. Sorry again.
Well, the intent is pragmatism, anyway.
The problem is that even from a pragmatic point of view, it's full of holes! The world of religion doesn't exist as a yes/no checkbox like Pascal implies. Any God or gods could be substituted for the Christian god, and nearly all of them are jealous, so you'll end up on the wrong end of the deal no matter who you believe in if you're wrong.
I think the best response I've heard to that argument, though, is this:
"You believe your God is omniscient, right?" "Yeah." "So then wouldn't he know if the only reason I believed in and worshiped Him was on the off chance that He existed so that I wouldn't go to Hell? Don't you think He would be a little pissed off about that?" "Oh, uh...."
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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:55 pm
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Louis-Auguste Robespierre Raticiel ...someone who invented a prototype computer and probability theory.... IF you believe, AND he exists, THEN... sounds like BASIC...
Not surprising that the logic sounds like that, then, considering the source, eh?
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Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 11:01 pm
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alteregoivy Raticiel My, sorry, my mistake again. sweatdrop didn't notice that little "and" whee well, still I think it's just pragmatic. Sorry again. Well, the intent is pragmatism, anyway. The problem is that even from a pragmatic point of view, it's full of holes! The world of religion doesn't exist as a yes/no checkbox like Pascal implies. Any God or gods could be substituted for the Christian god, and nearly all of them are jealous, so you'll end up on the wrong end of the deal no matter who you believe in if you're wrong. I think the best response I've heard to that argument, though, is this: "You believe your God is omniscient, right?" "Yeah." "So then wouldn't he know if the only reason I believed in and worshiped Him was on the off chance that He existed so that I wouldn't go to Hell? Don't you think He would be a little pissed off about that?" "Oh, uh...." Well, you've got the point. The same goes with kantian view of god as a regulative idea of our reason which lets us act "good". It is often ctiticized. Still, as for poor old Blaise, I think considering how faithful he was it's just natural that he'd think that way... I like Wittgenstein's or Nietzche's views on ethics, as they say our morality should never ever be controlled by our image of afterlife and morality is not a transaction with god. And sorry again for that misuderstanding from before xd
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