Is it ethical to spread atheism?

[brainnsoup]

I'm sure many if not all of you have been in the situation where you were either pressured to or engaged in debating theism with a theist.
And of course, EDIT: some theism completely defies logic and you can not debate against it with logic so the debate usually ends in a stalemate with both of you walking away with the exact same beliefs you had before the debate.
I've been in this situation a lot.

But even though I know that I'll probably never turn somebody into an atheist unless they already have very weak faith, I still wonder if what I'm doing is wrong.
Not that I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure that I'm right.
But say I did manage to convert somebody from theism to atheism.
I would take away their God(s), their faith, their hope, their security.
Is it ethical to do that to someone?

I often think that I would be happier if I was still a theist.
I would never want to go back. I like my new mindset of questioning everything and finding the answers.
But I would be happier if I could believe that there was a God who loved me, and that if I followed Him I would go to Heaven, and that bad things happen for a reason, and that there really is a plan for all of this.
Is it ethical to take that away from somebody?

 

[B1g_crunch]

I don't find happiness within the idea of an all powerful being, instead I take pleasure from just being alive. I'm not entirely sure if people use the idea of god for happiness, and not instead for peace of mind. If a person converts to atheism, it wouldn't be unethical because the person can only convert of their free will, not by force.  

[MiniSiets]

I don't see what would be wrong about trying to change someone's beliefs to ones that you feel are more likely to be true. If all your hope and security has been built upon a shaky foundation to begin with, then you're really asking for trouble since eventually someone or something could come along and easily collapse that foundation when it gets put to the test.

I think there is plenty to enjoy and be hopeful about in life despite that there aren't any supernatural forces watching after you, and I think if you can show how you can live a happy and satisfying life without deities, then it's really not a big deal. They would be replacing hope and security based on false reasons for hope and security based on a more concrete foundation, not losing it altogether.  

[alteregoivy]

I don't think it's wrong in an absolute sense. However, you really need to take into account the other person's position. In my case, where I was really torturing myself with my religious beliefs and honestly needed a change, then that's great! Some people don't even realize they have a choice until you tell them that they do.

On the other hand, some people are only emotionally stable because of their belief in God. In this case, I think it is best to leave them be unless they want to change.

Don't get me wrong, most people are set in their beliefs and aren't going to be unhinged by a little friendly debate.

However, I think you could really do a good thing for someone by offering them emotional support in learning to live in a world without God if they want to. It's scary, but it also may be the only route to true, long-term emotional stability, even if the religion seems safer.  

[brainnsoup]

MiniSiets

I don't see what would be wrong about trying to change someone's beliefs to ones that you feel are more likely to be true. If all your hope and security has been built upon a shaky foundation to begin with, then you're really asking for trouble since eventually someone or something could come along and easily collapse that foundation when it gets put to the test.

I think there is plenty to enjoy and be hopeful about in life despite that there aren't any supernatural forces watching after you, and I think if you can show how you can live a happy and satisfying life without deities, then it's really not a big deal. They would be replacing hope and security based on false reasons for hope and security based on a more concrete foundation, not losing it altogether.

Maybe if I gave some examples...
When I see people, smart, thinking people that I respect, talking about their God(s), their entire faces light up.
Or at least for the person I'm thinking of specifically, it's like I get this feeling that their beliefs give their lives meaning.
Who am I to take that away?
I'm not saying that I could, but what if I did?
Is it worth the it in the end?

Or it's like that episode of Full-metal Alchemist, for any anime fans.
Basically what happens is there is a corrupt false prophet who uses alchemy to take control of a small desert village by saying he has powers from God.
And the heroes come into town and end up exposing him.
But instead of thanking them, the villagers, or at least one villager, hates them saying that they had hope before.
Sure, they have truth now and are no longer being fooled by a power-hungry tyrant, but now they have nothing to live for.

That's exactly the moral dilemma I end up facing.  

[brainnsoup]

alteregoivy

I don't think it's wrong in an absolute sense. However, you really need to take into account the other person's position. In my case, where I was really torturing myself with my religious beliefs and honestly needed a change, then that's great! Some people don't even realize they have a choice until you tell them that they do.

On the other hand, some people are only emotionally stable because of their belief in God. In this case, I think it is best to leave them be unless they want to change.

Don't get me wrong, most people are set in their beliefs and aren't going to be unhinged by a little friendly debate.

However, I think you could really do a good thing for someone by offering them emotional support in learning to live in a world without God if they want to. It's scary, but it also may be the only route to true, long-term emotional stability, even if the religion seems safer.

I know what you mean. I was suffering with my old religion too.
I don't understand why people choose Christianity. It revolves so much around around guilt and shame.
Maybe it's just not for me.

I would never try to force atheism on anyone.
I think some people need religion. And it's not my job to decide who would be better off without it.
But like unintentionally.  

[D i v i n i t y]

Oy, I know how you feel... My girlfriend and I have been together for a bit over a year. I truly do believe that I'm in love with her despite the fact that she's.... she's -gulp- a CATHOLIC! gonk
I wouldn't say she's very "religious" but her family definitely is. She was raised in the Philippines (which is known to be one of the most Catholic countries, and among the least atheistic countries in the world), and none of her close friends (which are now pretty good friends of mine as well) or family know that I am an atheist. I think they would, at the very least, look down on me a bit if they found out. Well, at least I'm a pretty quiet and nice guy with them so even if they found out I was an atheist, their worldview might totally be confuzzled up since they'd be all "BUT HE'S NICE. HE MUST BE RELIGIOUS AHHHH".
Anyways, I feel like I want her to become an atheist one day so it could reduce the complications in our future together, but I also feel like it would cause her a lot of misery since her family is so religious. I used to be quite religious and it hurt me to change. When it all 'clicked' inside my head, it was sort of alright, but I regretted how I used to view atheists. I mean, I never bashed them or anything but I used to look down on them. It especially makes me sad that my girlfriend and I have gotten into several arguments concerning religion before... they weren't so much religious debates but were honest complications about our future that we talked about.. Like how we would raise the kids, if I would attend church with her, etc. I do regret becoming an atheist sometimes. I would NOT choose to go back to my old mindset and completely forget what I know now, BUT I sometimes wish that these complications that my girlfriend and I have could be overcome... Now many might say that me and my girlfriend's relationship won't work in the long run and will eventually fall apart, but we are currently too happy together and we want to try to make it work despite the lameness obstacles...

Sorry for this little monologue I have there o.O
Sorry if anyone actually read through that.  

[brainnsoup]

D i v i n i t y

Oy, I know how you feel... My girlfriend and I have been together for a bit over a year. I truly do believe that I'm in love with her despite the fact that she's.... she's -gulp- a CATHOLIC! gonk
I wouldn't say she's very "religious" but her family definitely is. She was raised in the Philippines (which is known to be one of the most Catholic countries, and among the least atheistic countries in the world), and none of her close friends (which are now pretty good friends of mine as well) or family know that I am an atheist. I think they would, at the very least, look down on me a bit if they found out. Well, at least I'm a pretty quiet and nice guy with them so even if they found out I was an atheist, their worldview might totally be confuzzled up since they'd be all "BUT HE'S NICE. HE MUST BE RELIGIOUS AHHHH".
Anyways, I feel like I want her to become an atheist one day so it could reduce the complications in our future together, but I also feel like it would cause her a lot of misery since her family is so religious. I used to be quite religious and it hurt me to change. When it all 'clicked' inside my head, it was sort of alright, but I regretted how I used to view atheists. I mean, I never bashed them or anything but I used to look down on them. It especially makes me sad that my girlfriend and I have gotten into several arguments concerning religion before... they weren't so much religious debates but were honest complications about our future that we talked about.. Like how we would raise the kids, if I would attend church with her, etc. I do regret becoming an atheist sometimes. I would NOT choose to go back to my old mindset and completely forget what I know now, BUT I sometimes wish that these complications that my girlfriend and I have could be overcome... Now many might say that me and my girlfriend's relationship won't work in the long run and will eventually fall apart, but we are currently too happy together and we want to try to make it work despite the lameness obstacles...

Sorry for this little monologue I have there o.O
Sorry if anyone actually read through that.

CATHOLIC?! *hiss* *cower* .....XD

And that's rough. ): That's a whole set of issues I wasn't even thinking about.
About the fact that if she was an atheist, her family would judge her for it, I mean.
I know many people avoid labeling themselves as atheists even though they have no faith for exactly that reason.
I wouldn't wish that on anyone either.

Christianity is tough...
With some religion it's live and let live.
I wish Christianity was like that.

It's tough. Like I said earlier, I believe that some people need religion to have hope and be motivated to do good, and some people are much happier as atheists.
But how are we supposed to tell?  

[brainnsoup]

Labyrinthknight7

I don't find happiness within the idea of an all powerful being, instead I take pleasure from just being alive. I'm not entirely sure if people use the idea of god for happiness, and not instead for peace of mind. If a person converts to atheism, it wouldn't be unethical because the person can only convert of their free will, not by force.

Nonono, it's not that I think converting to atheism on one's own is unethical.
I think it's an amazing thing. I mean, obviously I'm biased. But I think that taking that final step to atheism shows great bravery and individuality.

But I'm talking about taking someone's faith away from them. Unintentionally or not.
Actually convincing someone that their God doesn't exist.
A lot of people rely on deities to give their lives meaning and go to their religion for comfort.
For a lot of people, everything that defines them is from their religion.
That's what I struggle with when I start to get more persistent in my debates with theists.

Or like, I understand what you're saying about not being able to force someone to stop believing.
But think back, if you were a theist before, there were probably some things that some people said that influenced your decision, whether you realized it at the time or not.  

[Raticiel]

Is it ethical? But which ethics are we talking about? The answer might change.

I am quite deontological myself, utilitarism is a huge failure to me, I kind of like ideas of arete (the ethical virtue) as a way to build myself as a better person. I guess christianity is a kind of good religion, because if you make a little reduction, rip off all guilt/sin/etc. stuff the only thing that lasts might me the idea of love for everyone, even those who don't deserve it, teleology (which gives one's life a meaning as it has aim), and a stable (but not that great) ethical system. I don't like to follow many of church's teachings, I find many of those ridiculous and destroying one's freedom, but still the key is to get all what is best from a religious system. The idea of Jesus is nothing bad in my most humble opinion, a role model of sacrifice is something nice.

I still think there's no ethical criteria for right/wrong, and I know many people might feel like lost without any religious grounding. Look at Raskolnikov and Sonya.  

[brainnsoup]

Raticiel

Is it ethical? But which ethics are we talking about? The answer might change.

I am quite deontological myself, utilitarism is a huge failure to me, I kind of like ideas of arete (the ethical virtue) as a way to build myself as a better person. I guess christianity is a kind of good religion, because if you make a little reduction, rip off all guilt/sin/etc. stuff the only thing that lasts might me the idea of love for everyone, even those who don't deserve it, teleology (which gives one's life a meaning as it has aim), and a stable (but not that great) ethical system. I don't like to follow many of church's teachings, I find many of those ridiculous and destroying one's freedom, but still the key is to get all what is best from a religious system. The idea of Jesus is nothing bad in my most humble opinion, a role model of sacrifice is something nice.

I still think there's no ethical criteria for right/wrong, and I know many people might feel like lost without any religious grounding. Look at Raskolnikov and Sonya.

I guess moral is a better word.
Is it right by you?
Like for me, I decided right and wrong based on my own experiences. On my own.
But I can't decide what I think about this.

About Christianity though, I try to be open-minded, but I'm growing more and more resentful of Christianity.
It seems to spread so much more hate than love.
And I absolutely hate that it actually encourages forcing Christianity on other people.
I support the idea that Christians should try to be Christ-like and follow His teachings.
But that's so seldom the case, at least in my recent experiences.  

[[-Erik-]]

Well, that pretty much depends on you. Answer this question: Is it ethical for somebody to spread their religious beliefs?

If making somebody realize they don't really belive in X gods is immoral, then I'll stop teaching stuff to my little brother.

 

[=X-Sparker + AquaKiller=]

brainnsoup

Maybe if I gave some examples...
When I see people, smart, thinking people that I respect, talking about their God(s), their entire faces light up.
Or at least for the person I'm thinking of specifically, it's like I get this feeling that their beliefs give their lives meaning.
Who am I to take that away?
I'm not saying that I could, but what if I did?
Is it worth the it in the end?

Or it's like that episode of Full-metal Alchemist, for any anime fans.
Basically what happens is there is a corrupt false prophet who uses alchemy to take control of a small desert village by saying he has powers from God.
And the heroes come into town and end up exposing him.
But instead of thanking them, the villagers, or at least one villager, hates them saying that they had hope before.
Sure, they have truth now and are no longer being fooled by a power-hungry tyrant, but now they have nothing to live for.

That's exactly the moral dilemma I end up facing.

I don't think it's exactly morally "wrong" to change someone's belief. Truth is a hard pill to swallow. Have you heard of Plato's Allegory of the Cave? He basically says that, "And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes...?" Metaphorically it means that when a man is enlightened, he will feel that truth hurts.

It's inevitable that someone who gets disillusioned about religion or god will feel very disappointed and hopeless. It's just the way disillusion works. It's like taking drugs, you feel terrible without it only because you've been fed with that pleasure for so long you didn't want to lose it. But we all know that if you keep at it, you'll overdose. Similarly, people who so blindly follow religion will eventually end up destroying themselves because of their blind faith. We've already heard examples of people murdering others because they felt that their "god" is being given a bad name or harmed, or their faith is endangered. Also similarly in your FMA example, if Edward and Al didn't disillusion the villagers about the fake prophet, the prophet will eventually team up with the Homunculus and destroy the village to achieve their selfish goals. It may seem unethical to take away the villagers' hope, but was it any better to leave them be and let them eventually be killed?

Let me put your ethical dilemma down to one simple question: Would you rather have someone getting hurt by the truth, or would you rather let them dwell in lies?

My answer to that question is almost always the former one. I understand that you feel bad about being the one who have to do the ugly job. Like some other members have already said, I would also have left some people alone in their religion if they are so set and firm about it (that's where the "almost" in my response comes from). Personally, I don't think it's a problem for people believe in a religion just for small mental comforts, but often times people can't control themselves and they let religion take over them, the way they live, and the way they see other people, and eventually they become those who force their religion upon others.

Besides, you probably won't convert anyone whose faith wasn't weak in the first place already. So if you really did, it's not entirely your "fault" (as you would put it), since they have a responsibility for having a weak faith as well.

For the most part, I believe it's better for people to know the truth than to live in lies.

 

[OtakuJeannie]

My take, no it is not unethical to debate religion with someone.

To paraphrase Calls For Cthulhu, faith is something within you and while people can try to share the stories and descriptions of what they feel within themselves what rings true for one cannot be easily changed.

By sharing your views, and allowing others to share your views you can create understanding, not conversion making it easier to see the other side as more than just a religion stereotype and make it possible for two groups to coexist.  

[Radical Hypocrisy]

That's a really good question. When I turned Atheist, I lost my stability but gained objective reasoning. And through that, I gained stability in myself. I didn't need a God with a plan watching out for me. I have myself, with my own plan, and my own life, watching out for myself, and that is far more tangible and stable then any God.

However, not all people share my reasoning. Christianity comes from the comforting belief that there is something bigger than us that loves us. Why do you think God is called The Father? During childhood, one would be told of God, and the idea would stick. Into Adolescence, when parental figures take a backseat role and we test ourselves. God fills the void left by receding parents.

Other things strengthen this belief. Knowing that your parents will not be there forever does this. God will always be there. God will always love you. God will always listen. God will always forgive.

However, just like we outgrow our parents, so to must we outgrow God. Not to say that our parents are no longer important after we strike out on our own, but they no longer play the role of care-giver. By the same token, God should not be a source of dependency. It's a nice thought, but it shouldn't be all-encompassing.

I do not find it morally objectionable to try and make someone just a little more self-sufficient. God is all-to-often used as an excuse.