Final Fantasy

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Chase Me To The End

1. Certainly it isn't. But more than likely it is the safest bet.

Yes, and Resident Evil is more than likely the safest bet for Survival Horror. rolleyes

Chase Me To The End

2. Past ten years for the main series...X, XI, XII, XIII. Other than XI, which got some heat for the game changer, all the other entries have recieved high praise. Even XII. Cuz even though it also was a game changer, since XI came out, it was easier to accept.

Yep, high praise, good reviews... That's what defines a game.
Not the fact that the battle system in XII was crap.
XI I wouldn't even call a part of the main series. Just because it had a number and no second title?

So other than that, you got X, which, like I said, I was not impressed with.

Chase Me To The End

3. Yes, you're right. FF hasn't been a standard setter in recent years (Except of course for it's high presentation values). So unlike what I said about past entries, the new games aren't generic. But I see it as it has been a standard setter since, what, IV all the way up to X? At least in terms of how to present itself, tell a story, and innovate.

Innovate what, exactly? The only truly innovative FF game was FF7, and only because it took the genre into the 3rd dimension, and yeah, actually made it a fully 3D experience. Aside from that, well, it improved on the formula, but it didn't innovate it.

Chase Me To The End

4. True, it's not always true. But when it comes to presentation and story telling in FF games, don't you think they have gotten better over the years? Hmm? Might just be me.

Presentation, sure, Final Fantasy always manages to up its epic, and Square-Enix has enough money to make something like the White engine which makes games look pants-creamingly good, though that's speaking purely about FFXIII. But what do you mean by storytelling? I mean, up until now, it's been the same, "Save the world" thing all over again. Like I said, what made each and every Final Fantasy worth playing isn't the storyline, it's the world itself. Yeah, you're gonna have to save the world. The fun part was that it was always a different world you're saving. And always introduced to this fleshed out world sometimes with different species living in one society, like in FFX or FFIX, sometimes just humans like in FFVIII, sometimes it's all really technological like VIII, sometimes it goes back to steampunk or even medievalish, like IX. So in the bigger scope, it's always the same, "Let's save the world." Okay, that's fine. So now they gotta make you care about the world, which is where the characters come on. And while in Final Fantasy games, there's usually some good characters, maybe a few great ones, I've played plenty of RPGs that have a bigger Awesome to Unawesome character ratio than Final Fantasy games. Because let's face it, for every Barret and Vivi, there's gonna be a Cait Sith and Quina. Most Final Fantasy games have at least 2 party members that you wouldn't mind throwing away, if not insisting to.
Whereas games like Persona... And again, dude, I have never even heard of the first two, I didn't know what the franchise was about, I only briefly read about it on Gamespot, and the review gave it an 8.5. It simply caught my eye. So man, there was no bias, no pre-determined opinion, and of course, no nostalgia. I just picked it up on a hunch and because it was cheap, and yeah, it became my favorite JRPG of all time, simply because of how likeable all the characters were. How well they were developed. And how good the voice acting was. There was no massive, epic presentation. The graphics are fairly simple in it. But I still loved it that much. All because of the characters in it.

Chase Me To The End

6. Actually, plenty plenty of stuff, to be exact. But I never found a greater RPG series, only games. And I say greater because it's hard not to look at FF with greatness when everyone else does. And the fact that I like a couple of it's installments also has me one sided. But it's not fanboyism, just conforminism.

So you're saying that you agree they're great just because that's what everyone else says?
Dude, I hate to sound like a South Park goth kid, but conformity is a bad thing. You follow a leader because you believe in that leader, not because you believe the people who believe in that leader.

Chase Me To The End

7. That's exactly the way I wanted it to come off. I really do think the FF developers know everyone thinks their RPG series is the best, so they go about trying to make it the best so that people still call it the best. Doesn't that seem sort of like logical speculation rather than comments of a fanboy?

Dude, everyone tries to make their game the best it can be. But quite frankly, Final Fantasy has been failing for the past 10 years.

Chase Me To The End

But with western RPGs (Echh) overtaking the American market, seems like it won't be considered the best for much longer...At least in regards to current installments.

Well, maybe that's because Western RPGs have finally picked up their pace. They moved up from the isometric Diablo formula (no disrespect) and finally put the played into the action, and not only that, but actually started making the storyline matter. With games like Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Oblivion, and of course, Fallout 3, they've been making RPGs the immersive experiences that appeal to a much larger market. And that's innovation! Not making the presentation better (even though that also happened), but actually changing the game to be more immersive. That's what WRPGs needed, I think.

With Japanese RPGs... s**t, I dunno what they need. But a real-time battle system is NOT it. See, the thing is, you can have awesome hack and slash battles like God of War, and awesome turn-based battles like FFX, but if you put them together... Well, basically, you're using a poor hack and slash system to level grind. And despite the fact that WoW has such a huge fanbase, something like that sounds like nothing but a pain in the a** to me.

Chase Me To The End

That being said, the fact that the series is resposible for such massive hits such as IV, VI, VII and X (Well I'll exclude X since you don't like it, and add VIII because you do) would make lots of people still get excited for it, just because it's the name behind those games.

Well, that's ancient history, dude. And yeah, those games are still great, and still well worth playing. But for ten long years, they've produced lackluster products. That only sold well because of the rabid fanboyism. That's what kept the company alive.
If how good the video games truly were, actually reflected their sales, there wouldn't be a FFXIII, because Square wouldn't have had the budget to make it.
Here's the thing. Like I said, with Final Fantasy, the title pretty much carries it. It does. Because yeah, I can say, "Well, Konami has made some pretty great games in the past, so I'll look into this new franchise by Konami, it looks promising," but I'm not gonna just jump onto it just because it's made by the same company, or even the same team.
With Final Fantasy, the name is the only thing that tells people, "Yeah, it's gonna be awesome just like the last one."
But with FF, it really does come off like a completely separate franchise. All I'm saying is, people shouldn't just jump onto it because of the name.
How many people do you imagine bought FFXI only to realize that it was an MMO AFTERWARDS? I bet there were at least a couple thousand out there, if not more. And then they went out and got a Network Adapter just to play it, because it's Final Fantasy, and it's holy of all holys. That's how much some people worship the game, dude. And that's unhealthy, that's all I'm saying.

Take Windwaker... Okay, so you liked it... But don't tell me you weren't at least a little weary when you saw the screenshots, or heard about it, or whatever.  

[King of Paradise]

1. Well, unlike the RE series, FF has remained in the same genre all throughout (XI, although an MMO, is still an RPG). So, yeah, I'd still say it's the safest bet. And unlike RE, it's mechanics have always been changing, so...In that sense, it's not the safest bet for those who expect the same, but is for those who still expect something great no matter what is delivered. Say what you will about X and XII, reviewers still loved it.

2. Well, you think a game would get rave reviews because all of it's aspects rock. I agree with you in saying I don't prefer FFXII's battle system, but hey, we're the few against many.

3. Innovation doesn't mean to revolutionize, like in taking the series into 3D. It just means to keep things fresh, the introduction of something new, and that is what every succession installment has been doing since the beginning, which is more than I can say for the subte changes in such series as Pokemon and the Tales Of series.

4. Yes, that's the thing. The characters in FFXIII are supposed to be the series' best (From what I've been reading from reviews) in how they develop and react with eachother and to others to the unfolding events in this "save the world" plot. So, in the series itself, the storytelling seems to be constantly getting better. And I'm not comparing it to other RPGs.

5. Ok, than I change it to my own opinion. I didn't want to admit it at first (For not wanting to seem just like just another in the crowd), but truth be told, I really haven't discovered a better RPG series yet.

6. Failing 'til now.

7. Actually, had it not been for the fact that FFXIII is extremely linear for the first third of the experience, I think it would have recieved universal acclaim rather then positive-to-mixed reviews, and been the game the genre of JRPG needed to advance foward.

I don't like WRPGs such as Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 2 because they're just action-shooters with a leveling system incorporated, no matter how good the immersion factor is

8. The people who bought FFXI without looking at the back cover to see what new things it brought before buying it are what I call dumba**es.

That being said, even if they didn't expect an MMO, since it was FF, they got a good one.

I was foaming at the mouth by the time I got my copy of Windwaker. I didn't care what it looked like, because it was Zelda. I'm a very unhealthy person. But unlike dumba**es, I did check the back before I bought it to see if it was an MMO or not haha.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Chase Me To The End

1. Well, unlike the RE series, FF has remained in the same genre all throughout (XI, although an MMO, is still an RPG). So, yeah, I'd still say it's the safest bet. And unlike RE, it's mechanics have always been changing, so...In that sense, it's not the safest bet for those who expect the same, but is for those who still expect something great no matter what is delivered. Say what you will about X and XII, reviewers still loved it.

Yeah, but we're not talking about the gameplay... At least I'm not. I'm talking about the storyline. You know, maybe the reason so many people love even the crappy FFs is because they simply don't give a crap about the gameplay. That's what I'm saying, they'll play anything that says Final Fantasy on it, which is why they fanboy over Dirge of Cerberus and Dissidia. Point is, all they're in it for is the storyline. And in that respect, they don't put one critical thought into it. Is this protagonist annoying? Is this protagonist one dimensional? They don't care. They just absorb it, loving every second of it, regardless of how bad it may be.

And I really don't give a crap about reviwers, dude. Reviewers gave RE4 a 9.6. I'd give it a good burning.

Chase Me To The End

2. Well, you think a game would get rave reviews because all of it's aspects rock. I agree with you in saying I don't prefer FFXII's battle system, but hey, we're the few against many.

Well, yeah... But I mean, that's like... (And I hate to do this, I really do, but it's the best I could come up with. sweatdrop ) ...If we were in Nazi Germany, you'd be saying, "Well, we're few against many. So because of that, I'm gonna have to agree, Hitler is a great guy."
You know what I mean? Just because the majority is hypnotized by it, doesn't mean you just have to agree.

Chase Me To The End

3. Innovation doesn't mean to revolutionize, like in taking the series into 3D. It just means to keep things fresh, the introduction of something new, and that is what every succession installment has been doing since the beginning, which is more than I can say for the subte changes in such series as Pokemon and the Tales Of series.

Well, I dunno about the Tales of series, but like I said, pretty much every RPG out there does something different either with its battle system, or its concept, or whatever. Here's the thing though, sometimes all I want is a good ol' traditional RPG, made in the exact formula of FF6 or FF9, with the only difference being a new storyline, but with a fluid and smooth battle system.
Just because there are new things out there, doesn't mean the old things should get weeded out completely.
Eithe way, that's not the point, the point is that pretty much every RPG goes for something new. I dunno about Tales of, I never played it. As for Pokemon.. Well, it's Nintendo. I mean, they're still releasing the same side scroller Mario.

Chase Me To The End

4. Yes, that's the thing. The characters in FFXIII are supposed to be the series' best (From what I've been reading from reviews) in how they develop and react with eachother and to others to the unfolding events in this "save the world" plot. So, in the series itself, the storytelling seems to be constantly getting better. And I'm not comparing it to other RPGs.

Well, I'd say the storytelling was a step down in FFX. First of all, I can't pinpoint why, but the voice acting was a huge miss in that game.
Look, here's the thing... If FFXIII has an amazing storyline and great gameplay, it's NOT a trend follower. It's a comeback. It's not like, Final Fantasy has been getting progressively better. It's more like, Final Fantasy started sucking, and now they finally picked up the kind of quality stride they should've had for the past 10 years.
And even then, dude... I don't know that yet. I'm gonna have to play it.

Chase Me To The End

5. Ok, than I change it to my own opinion. I didn't want to admit it at first (For not wanting to seem just like just another in the crowd), but truth be told, I really haven't discovered a better RPG series yet.

Well, if all you're looking for is pretty presentations and epic scenes, then sure, FF is the best. But quite frankly, like I said, if you look at the story character wise, FF hasn't been that great. Like I said, there's usually a couple of really cool characters in each game, and the rest are just kinda there. And the storylines are always variations of the same "Save the World." Which is also why I like FF8, because it puts time travel into the equation, which makes it cool, because technically, the enemy you're facing hasn't even been born yet.
Bottom line is, Final Fantasy might be the best when it comes to presentation, graphics, and creativity when it comes to the setting. But in terms of narrative, storytelling, character development... And quite frankly, character design (I'm not gonna get into the kinds of things that transcend from fantasy stylish, into plain tacky)... There are many much better ones out there. And when you're gonna play a 40+ hour game, i.e. a JRPG, the storyline better be worth it, you know?

Chase Me To The End

6. Failing 'til now.

Exactly like I said, FF13 is a potential comeback.

Chase Me To The End

7. Actually, had it not been for the fact that FFXIII is extremely linear for the first third of the experience, I think it would have recieved universal acclaim rather then positive-to-mixed reviews, and been the game the genre of JRPG needed to advance foward.

Well, that's like saying, "If God of War had better fighting mechanics, it would've moved hack and slash genre forward."
The fact that it's linear is pretty much eliminating the exploration factor. And that's a huge factor when it comes to RPGs. Quite frankly, if it wasn't for the leveling system, I don't know if you could even consider it an RPG. I mean, from the moment Final Fantasy stopped allowing you to rename your main character, I started asking myself, "Is it even an RPG anymore?"
So no, it's definitely not moving the genre forward.
And you know, that's a big problem right now. RE4 is the perfect example of this. Games are starting to borrow aspect from other genres, and at first it might seem cool an innnovative. But at the end of the day, we're gonna end up with all games being of the same genre. Every game with a storyline is gonna be a big blend of RPG, FPS, Platformer and Hack & Slash. And they'll all be exactly the same.

Chase Me To The End

I don't like WRPGs such as Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 2 because they're just action-shooters with a leveling system incorporated, no matter how good the immersion factor is

No, that's not true. A huge part of their gameplay is interaction with other characters. Which makes them more RPG than any JRPG. The moral choices, the conversation branches, there's so much depth to them, that yeah, you can really make your character be the way you want them to be, personality wise. And I don't know what's more Role-Playing than that. And in terms of combat, the only thing Fallout and Mass Effect did, was they took the Diablo formula, put you into the action, and made it more intuitive. And they did it well. Unlike FF12, or Kingdom Hearts, which have a pretty piss poor excuse for hack and slash mechanics.

Chase Me To The End

8. The people who bought FFXI without looking at the back cover to see what new things it brought before buying it are what I call dumba**es.

Well, guess what. Half of Final Fantasy's hardcore fanbase are dumbasses. That's why when you say, "Well, the characters were more likable in this other RPG," they'll say, "WHAT! I WILL FIGHT YOU!"

Chase Me To The End

That being said, even if they didn't expect an MMO, since it was FF, they got a good one.

A good MMO is still a crappy RPG, as far as I'm concerned. But like I said, I play RPGs for the storyline. Not for endless quests.

Chase Me To The End

I was foaming at the mouth by the time I got my copy of Windwaker. I didn't care what it looked like, because it was Zelda. I'm a very unhealthy person. But unlike dumba**es, I did check the back before I bought it to see if it was an MMO or not haha.

Well, still. You just blindly got this game because of the title... I expected better of you, man. I mean, I did a LOT of research before getting Metal Gear Acid, and even when I did, I wasn't sure I was gonna like it. I did, but only because I'm a fan of turn based strategy. If I hadn't been, I would've hated the crap out of it, and probably wouldn't have bothered with it.  

[Canas Renvall]

Again, Bio, with the Nazis. xd

Also, just because you can't name your character doesn't automatically mean it's not an RPG. That's the weirdest s**t I've heard all day. :XP: Lost Odyssey didn't let you rename your character, and look how good that game was (hint: good).

Besides, they took out the ability to do so in order to make the storyline more involved. It's kinda weird when they have to put all the spoken dialogue in such a way that they never have to say the main character's name (such as in X).

And no, don't give me the "Well spoken dialogue shouldn't be in RPGs then!" bullshit, that's grasping at straws. I would have to say that Chase is right: this group in FFXIII could possibly be the best cast because of their interactions. They try not to be clichéd, and when they are you can tell that the writers tried to avoid it as much as possible. Never before has an FF showed this much emotion consistently in its characters, be it happiness, sadness, anger, etc. You start to feel for them. It's hard to do that when the dialogue has to be changed so that the main character's name is never uttered once.

The director of the game said it best in some interview regarding JRPGs and WRPGs. Western RPG stories tend to involve being the character, whereas JRPG stories are more about a cast of characters with the player watching on in 3rd person as they set off on their adventure. It's just different styles of storytelling, 1st-person vs. 3rd-person.

As for Windwaker, no, I didn't go "UGH, CELDA." I was excited. I'm still a gameplay over graphics person, even if I do enjoy pretty games. I was expecting an awesome Zelda game, an epic adventure... and look what I got. An awesome Zelda game, an epic adventure. I couldn't give two shits what the game looks like if it can deliver that.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Canas Renvall

Again, Bio, with the Nazis. xd

Like I said, I didn't wanna, but the analogy works every time.

Canas Renvall

Also, just because you can't name your character doesn't automatically mean it's not an RPG. That's the weirdest s**t I've heard all day. :XP: Lost Odyssey didn't let you rename your character, and look how good that game was (hint: good).

First of all, what does it being GOOD have to do with it being an RPG?
Second, no, that one aspect doesn't define an RPG. But then what? Does Leveling up? If you level up does that automatically make it an RPG? I mean, that's how people see it these days. Borderlands is classified as an RPG.
My point is, Final Fantasy has been losing more and more RPG elements. No world maps. No random encounters. It's just becoming less and less of an RPG. And all I'm saying is, that doesn't move the RPG genre forward. That just dissolves the RPG. It's like saying, "If you put some orange juice into Apple Juice, you're making the next level of Apple Juice.

Canas Renvall

Besides, they took out the ability to do so in order to make the storyline more involved. It's kinda weird when they have to put all the spoken dialogue in such a way that they never have to say the main character's name (such as in X).

You're right. But you know what? RPGs were generally better before they implemented voice acting at all. So it's a step back.

Canas Renvall

And no, don't give me the "Well spoken dialogue shouldn't be in RPGs then!" bullshit, that's grasping at straws. I would have to say that Chase is right: this group in FFXIII could possibly be the best cast because of their interactions. They try not to be clichéd, and when they are you can tell that the writers tried to avoid it as much as possible. Never before has an FF showed this much emotion consistently in its characters, be it happiness, sadness, anger, etc. You start to feel for them. It's hard to do that when the dialogue has to be changed so that the main character's name is never uttered once.

But, again, this is Square Enix after 10 years of making crap. And you know what? I sugarcoated it and sugarcoated it. But quite frankly, that's the basics of my opinion. Every single game that had "Final Fantasy" in the title, between 2001 and 2009 has been crap. And even those that had FF cameos, i.e. Kingdom Hearts. Crap. You can disagree with me if you want, I really don't care.

Canas Renvall

The director of the game said it best in some interview regarding JRPGs and WRPGs. Western RPG stories tend to involve being the character, whereas JRPG stories are more about a cast of characters with the player watching on in 3rd person as they set off on their adventure. It's just different styles of storytelling, 1st-person vs. 3rd-person.

Yeah, you're right... It tells a great story. But there's virtually no "Role-playing" in that whatsoever. Not more than in any other type of game. Leveling up isn't role playing. It's just character building on a technical aspect.
The only reason to even call Final Fantasy a Role Playing Game these days is because its roots come from old school tabletop RPGs like Dungeons and Dragons. But the evidence of those roots is so miniscule now that they should just create a new name for the genre. "Japanese Interactive Story Epics" or something. JISE. And no, I didn't mean to create an acronym that's pronounced "j**."

Canas Renvall

As for Windwaker, no, I didn't go "UGH, CELDA." I was excited. I'm still a gameplay over graphics person, even if I do enjoy pretty games. I was expecting an awesome Zelda game, an epic adventure... and look what I got. An awesome Zelda game, an epic adventure. I couldn't give two shits what the game looks like if it can deliver that.

Yeah, but when a franchise makes a dramatic change like that, you can never know what to expect. Just because it delivered doesn't mean it was a safe bet.
And it's not about the graphics, it's about the art direction. Which, now that I think about it, actually plays a large part in whether I like the game. It's not about texture resolution of polygon count, it's about the art direction. Hence why I wouldn't bother playing the PS2/Wii version of Ghostbusters. But that's another discussion entirely.  

[King of Paradise]

Biohazard EXTREME

Chase Me To The End

1. Well, unlike the RE series, FF has remained in the same genre all throughout (XI, although an MMO, is still an RPG). So, yeah, I'd still say it's the safest bet. And unlike RE, it's mechanics have always been changing, so...In that sense, it's not the safest bet for those who expect the same, but is for those who still expect something great no matter what is delivered. Say what you will about X and XII, reviewers still loved it.

Yeah, but we're not talking about the gameplay... At least I'm not. I'm talking about the storyline. You know, maybe the reason so many people love even the crappy FFs is because they simply don't give a crap about the gameplay. That's what I'm saying, they'll play anything that says Final Fantasy on it, which is why they fanboy over Dirge of Cerberus and Dissidia. Point is, all they're in it for is the storyline. And in that respect, they don't put one critical thought into it. Is this protagonist annoying? Is this protagonist one dimensional? They don't care. They just absorb it, loving every second of it, regardless of how bad it may be.

And I really don't give a crap about reviwers, dude. Reviewers gave RE4 a 9.6. I'd give it a good burning.

Chase Me To The End

2. Well, you think a game would get rave reviews because all of it's aspects rock. I agree with you in saying I don't prefer FFXII's battle system, but hey, we're the few against many.

Well, yeah... But I mean, that's like... (And I hate to do this, I really do, but it's the best I could come up with. sweatdrop ) ...If we were in Nazi Germany, you'd be saying, "Well, we're few against many. So because of that, I'm gonna have to agree, Hitler is a great guy."
You know what I mean? Just because the majority is hypnotized by it, doesn't mean you just have to agree.

Chase Me To The End

3. Innovation doesn't mean to revolutionize, like in taking the series into 3D. It just means to keep things fresh, the introduction of something new, and that is what every succession installment has been doing since the beginning, which is more than I can say for the subte changes in such series as Pokemon and the Tales Of series.

Well, I dunno about the Tales of series, but like I said, pretty much every RPG out there does something different either with its battle system, or its concept, or whatever. Here's the thing though, sometimes all I want is a good ol' traditional RPG, made in the exact formula of FF6 or FF9, with the only difference being a new storyline, but with a fluid and smooth battle system.
Just because there are new things out there, doesn't mean the old things should get weeded out completely.
Eithe way, that's not the point, the point is that pretty much every RPG goes for something new. I dunno about Tales of, I never played it. As for Pokemon.. Well, it's Nintendo. I mean, they're still releasing the same side scroller Mario.

Chase Me To The End

4. Yes, that's the thing. The characters in FFXIII are supposed to be the series' best (From what I've been reading from reviews) in how they develop and react with eachother and to others to the unfolding events in this "save the world" plot. So, in the series itself, the storytelling seems to be constantly getting better. And I'm not comparing it to other RPGs.

Well, I'd say the storytelling was a step down in FFX. First of all, I can't pinpoint why, but the voice acting was a huge miss in that game.
Look, here's the thing... If FFXIII has an amazing storyline and great gameplay, it's NOT a trend follower. It's a comeback. It's not like, Final Fantasy has been getting progressively better. It's more like, Final Fantasy started sucking, and now they finally picked up the kind of quality stride they should've had for the past 10 years.
And even then, dude... I don't know that yet. I'm gonna have to play it.

Chase Me To The End

5. Ok, than I change it to my own opinion. I didn't want to admit it at first (For not wanting to seem just like just another in the crowd), but truth be told, I really haven't discovered a better RPG series yet.

Well, if all you're looking for is pretty presentations and epic scenes, then sure, FF is the best. But quite frankly, like I said, if you look at the story character wise, FF hasn't been that great. Like I said, there's usually a couple of really cool characters in each game, and the rest are just kinda there. And the storylines are always variations of the same "Save the World." Which is also why I like FF8, because it puts time travel into the equation, which makes it cool, because technically, the enemy you're facing hasn't even been born yet.
Bottom line is, Final Fantasy might be the best when it comes to presentation, graphics, and creativity when it comes to the setting. But in terms of narrative, storytelling, character development... And quite frankly, character design (I'm not gonna get into the kinds of things that transcend from fantasy stylish, into plain tacky)... There are many much better ones out there. And when you're gonna play a 40+ hour game, i.e. a JRPG, the storyline better be worth it, you know?

Chase Me To The End

6. Failing 'til now.

Exactly like I said, FF13 is a potential comeback.

Chase Me To The End

7. Actually, had it not been for the fact that FFXIII is extremely linear for the first third of the experience, I think it would have recieved universal acclaim rather then positive-to-mixed reviews, and been the game the genre of JRPG needed to advance foward.

Well, that's like saying, "If God of War had better fighting mechanics, it would've moved hack and slash genre forward."
The fact that it's linear is pretty much eliminating the exploration factor. And that's a huge factor when it comes to RPGs. Quite frankly, if it wasn't for the leveling system, I don't know if you could even consider it an RPG. I mean, from the moment Final Fantasy stopped allowing you to rename your main character, I started asking myself, "Is it even an RPG anymore?"
So no, it's definitely not moving the genre forward.
And you know, that's a big problem right now. RE4 is the perfect example of this. Games are starting to borrow aspect from other genres, and at first it might seem cool an innnovative. But at the end of the day, we're gonna end up with all games being of the same genre. Every game with a storyline is gonna be a big blend of RPG, FPS, Platformer and Hack & Slash. And they'll all be exactly the same.

Chase Me To The End

I don't like WRPGs such as Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 2 because they're just action-shooters with a leveling system incorporated, no matter how good the immersion factor is

No, that's not true. A huge part of their gameplay is interaction with other characters. Which makes them more RPG than any JRPG. The moral choices, the conversation branches, there's so much depth to them, that yeah, you can really make your character be the way you want them to be, personality wise. And I don't know what's more Role-Playing than that. And in terms of combat, the only thing Fallout and Mass Effect did, was they took the Diablo formula, put you into the action, and made it more intuitive. And they did it well. Unlike FF12, or Kingdom Hearts, which have a pretty piss poor excuse for hack and slash mechanics.

Chase Me To The End

8. The people who bought FFXI without looking at the back cover to see what new things it brought before buying it are what I call dumba**es.

Well, guess what. Half of Final Fantasy's hardcore fanbase are dumbasses. That's why when you say, "Well, the characters were more likable in this other RPG," they'll say, "WHAT! I WILL FIGHT YOU!"

Chase Me To The End

That being said, even if they didn't expect an MMO, since it was FF, they got a good one.

A good MMO is still a crappy RPG, as far as I'm concerned. But like I said, I play RPGs for the storyline. Not for endless quests.

Chase Me To The End

I was foaming at the mouth by the time I got my copy of Windwaker. I didn't care what it looked like, because it was Zelda. I'm a very unhealthy person. But unlike dumba**es, I did check the back before I bought it to see if it was an MMO or not haha.

Well, still. You just blindly got this game because of the title... I expected better of you, man. I mean, I did a LOT of research before getting Metal Gear Acid, and even when I did, I wasn't sure I was gonna like it. I did, but only because I'm a fan of turn based strategy. If I hadn't been, I would've hated the crap out of it, and probably wouldn't have bothered with it.

1. Wait, if they only care about storyline, how can they absorb it even if it's horrid shi*? C'mon now. I'm sure there are as many hardcore FFVII fans that like Dirge as well as hate it.

2. And I don't always agree. But you have to admit, if the majority, if not all of reviewers give high praises to a game, then it has to be at least somewhat good, no (In the case such as of FFX if you are a fan of RPGs)? There has to be something there that they all saw that you can too...If not, then I feel the reviews would be rather mixed than.

EDIT: I understand that's a conformist way of thinking, but I usally like games that interest me that also has rave reviews.

3. Well, to tell the truth, of the 5 FF games I have played thus far, I really enjoyed only three of them (FFVII, FVIII, FFX). And personally, I thought they did great with the characters in each (except the small few I disliked)...Well, I don't remeber VIII to well though...That being said, I have not played at least three games of another RPG series as of yet compromised of four or more games, but once I do (And play more than the amount I have for the FF series), you never know. I may enjoy it more. Can't tell for sure 'til I do though, and I don't know of many RPG series compromised of many games other than the Tales Of series...There is Persona. but from all the details I got from it from you, it doesn't sound like my cup of tea, baby.

4. The fact that FFXIII is making you question it's genre is innovative enough. It's changing what exactly can be meant for a game to be called an RPG without crossing into other genres.

5. Ok, so Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 2 are RPGs in the traditional sense. Good. But the battle mechanics are still that of an action-shooter. I think this calls for the creation of a new genre, because even that's seems little removed from what games are in the genre of Action-RPG.

6. Sorry to disappoint. I knew enough of Wind Waker to know it was still the same old Zelda quest with new features, so I didn't buy it totally blindly. But until Nintendo does something drastic to the Zelda formula, I will still buy it with out having to do research on it because I know I will get exactly what I want from my Zelda title.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Chase Me To The End

1. Wait, if they only care about storyline, how can they absorb it even if it's horrid shi*? C'mon now. I'm sure there are as many hardcore FFVII fans that like Dirge as well as hate it.

Well, how can RE fans absorb RE4, even though it's horrid s**t? I mean, yeah, there are fans out there who say, "The storyline sucked, but I liked the gameplay so much that I'm a fanboy regardless." but there are just as many people out there who go, "No more zombies? Okay! Leon acts like an idiot? Okay! Jill is blonde now? Okay! Wesker falls into a volcano? Okay!" They don't care what it is, they just want it.

Chase Me To The End

2. And I don't always agree. But you have to admit, if the majority, if not all of reviewers give high praises to a game, then it has to be at least somewhat good, no (In the case such as of FFX if you are a fan of RPGs)? There has to be something there that they all saw that you can too...If not, then I feel the reviews would be rather mixed than.

Are you kidding? The reviews are often very misguided. For example, RPGfan.com is the only website that I've ever seen that actually gives the storyline a grade. The others are all robots, man. "Well, the gameplay is polished, good production values, good graphics, the voice acting is not annoying which is all we can hope for, so this game gets a 9.5."
That's all I freakin see, when it comes to reviews. And then you get like, "The storyline was really good, but the gameplay didn't offer anything new to the genre and/or the combat mechanics were a little unbalanced, 6.0"

Chase Me To The End

EDIT: I understand that's a conformist way of thinking, but I usally like games that interest me that also has rave reviews.

So, what if you see these trailers and this game looks absolutely amazing, and then it gets a 6.0. Will you not even give it a chance?

Chase Me To The End

3. Well, to tell the truth, of the 5 FF games I have played thus far, I really enjoyed only three of them (FFVII, FVIII, FFX). And personally, I thought they did great with the characters in each (except the small few I disliked)...Well, I don't remeber VIII to well though...That being said, I have not played at least three games of another RPG series as of yet compromised of four or more games, but once I do (And play more than the amount I have for the FF series), you never know. I may enjoy it more. Can't tell for sure 'til I do though, and I don't know of many RPG series compromised of many games other than the Tales Of series...There is Persona. but from all the details I got from it from you, it doesn't sound like my cup of tea, baby.

Well, your cup of tea or not. As far as voice acting and character development, and just characters in RPGs in general go, Persona has set a new bar. And despite being reportedly awesome, I don't think even FFXIII can top it. Not saying it's bad, just saying it's probably not quite that good. Of course, if all you see is awesome graphics and great cinematography, yeah, it's possible to get clouded by it and say, "There is no better, period."

Chase Me To The End

4. The fact that FFXIII is making you question it's genre is innovative enough. It's changing what exactly can be meant for a game to be called an RPG without crossing into other genres.

So, by that logic, the fact that RE4 is so not Survival Horror means that it's innovative to Survival Horror? That's what I'm saying, dude... I mean, yeah, there are certain preconceptions when it comes to RPGs, but that's like... If you have a platformer, you're expecting some PLATFORMING. If you have a first person shooter, you're expecting it to be FIRST PERSON. So... Is the ONE defining trait of an RPG leveling up? Cause that's not role playing. That's all I'm saying.

Chase Me To The End

5. Ok, so Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 2 are RPGs in the traditional sense. Good. But the battle mechanics are still that of an action-shooter. I think this calls for the creation of a new genre, because even that's seems little removed from what games are in the genre of Action-RPG.

But why? All it's changing is the setting. I mean, are you saying that RPGs must only be set in medieval times and only have swords? Heck, even those RPGs generally have bows and arrows, crossbows, etc. That's already an action shooter. If you compare Oblivion to Fallout 3, they're really not very different at all. The only thing different is the setting.

Chase Me To The End

6. Sorry to disappoint. I knew enough of Wind Waker to know it was still the same old Zelda quest with new features, so I didn't buy it totally blindly. But until Nintendo does something drastic to the Zelda formula, I will still buy it with out having to do research on it because I know I will get exactly what I want from my Zelda title.

Well, okay. It's a difficult judgement for Zelda itself, because most people don't play Zelda for the storyline. And those that do probably pick and choose.
There really isn't a pefrect analogy to every genre. But the point is, Final Fantasy is the one series where the setting and storyline is different every time, except for all the spinoffs and sequels they make, which are ALL crap.
But with every new Final Fantasy, it's like... Imagine if in every Zelda, there was a different protagonist, different setting. Would Zelda still be the same if Link was a robot with laser guns in the future? Because that's clearly not what you look for in a Zelda game, cause as it stands now, you won't find it.
So, if there are some people who are looking for a medievalish fantasy game, they won't find it in FF7, FF8, FF10, or 13... So like, they might only like 4, 5, 9, maybe 6.
And some people want something more futuristic, and they'd enjoy the ones I excluded above.
Maybe some people don't like feminine male protagonists, then they might avoid FF8, for example. The thing is, Final Fantasy is diverse, it is. So I refuse to believe that all those hardcore FF fans are so extremely all accepting of every type of thing in the world. So it's almost like, they adjust their own likes and dislikes just so they can say they like everything about a certain Final Fantasy.
So even if you have... Let's just say, a GameFAQs character poll, where you got a character like Meryl from Metal Gear Solid vs. say, Yuna from FFX. Who's a better character? Meryl, clearly. I mean, she just is. She's got more personality, she's more badass, she's just a better character. But even those Final Fantasy fanboys who played MGS will say, "Final Fantasy! Must vote for Final Fantasy so that Final Fantasy can win!"
Blind devotion, man. Final Fantasy has the biggest amount of blindly devoted fans out of any game series. And that includes the very same game critics who gave FFXII a 9.5.
The same score that FF7 got. Think about that. Now, I'm not an FF7 fanboy, you know that, but still, give credit where credit is due, and FF7 is better than FF12 in every single way, except for the graphics obviously.  

[King of Paradise]

Biohazard EXTREME

Chase Me To The End

1. Wait, if they only care about storyline, how can they absorb it even if it's horrid shi*? C'mon now. I'm sure there are as many hardcore FFVII fans that like Dirge as well as hate it.

Well, how can RE fans absorb RE4, even though it's horrid s**t? I mean, yeah, there are fans out there who say, "The storyline sucked, but I liked the gameplay so much that I'm a fanboy regardless." but there are just as many people out there who go, "No more zombies? Okay! Leon acts like an idiot? Okay! Jill is blonde now? Okay! Wesker falls into a volcano? Okay!" They don't care what it is, they just want it.

Chase Me To The End

2. And I don't always agree. But you have to admit, if the majority, if not all of reviewers give high praises to a game, then it has to be at least somewhat good, no (In the case such as of FFX if you are a fan of RPGs)? There has to be something there that they all saw that you can too...If not, then I feel the reviews would be rather mixed than.

Are you kidding? The reviews are often very misguided. For example, RPGfan.com is the only website that I've ever seen that actually gives the storyline a grade. The others are all robots, man. "Well, the gameplay is polished, good production values, good graphics, the voice acting is not annoying which is all we can hope for, so this game gets a 9.5."
That's all I freakin see, when it comes to reviews. And then you get like, "The storyline was really good, but the gameplay didn't offer anything new to the genre and/or the combat mechanics were a little unbalanced, 6.0"

Chase Me To The End

EDIT: I understand that's a conformist way of thinking, but I usally like games that interest me that also has rave reviews.

So, what if you see these trailers and this game looks absolutely amazing, and then it gets a 6.0. Will you not even give it a chance?

Chase Me To The End

3. Well, to tell the truth, of the 5 FF games I have played thus far, I really enjoyed only three of them (FFVII, FVIII, FFX). And personally, I thought they did great with the characters in each (except the small few I disliked)...Well, I don't remeber VIII to well though...That being said, I have not played at least three games of another RPG series as of yet compromised of four or more games, but once I do (And play more than the amount I have for the FF series), you never know. I may enjoy it more. Can't tell for sure 'til I do though, and I don't know of many RPG series compromised of many games other than the Tales Of series...There is Persona. but from all the details I got from it from you, it doesn't sound like my cup of tea, baby.

Well, your cup of tea or not. As far as voice acting and character development, and just characters in RPGs in general go, Persona has set a new bar. And despite being reportedly awesome, I don't think even FFXIII can top it. Not saying it's bad, just saying it's probably not quite that good. Of course, if all you see is awesome graphics and great cinematography, yeah, it's possible to get clouded by it and say, "There is no better, period."

Chase Me To The End

4. The fact that FFXIII is making you question it's genre is innovative enough. It's changing what exactly can be meant for a game to be called an RPG without crossing into other genres.

So, by that logic, the fact that RE4 is so not Survival Horror means that it's innovative to Survival Horror? That's what I'm saying, dude... I mean, yeah, there are certain preconceptions when it comes to RPGs, but that's like... If you have a platformer, you're expecting some PLATFORMING. If you have a first person shooter, you're expecting it to be FIRST PERSON. So... Is the ONE defining trait of an RPG leveling up? Cause that's not role playing. That's all I'm saying.

Chase Me To The End

5. Ok, so Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 2 are RPGs in the traditional sense. Good. But the battle mechanics are still that of an action-shooter. I think this calls for the creation of a new genre, because even that's seems little removed from what games are in the genre of Action-RPG.

But why? All it's changing is the setting. I mean, are you saying that RPGs must only be set in medieval times and only have swords? Heck, even those RPGs generally have bows and arrows, crossbows, etc. That's already an action shooter. If you compare Oblivion to Fallout 3, they're really not very different at all. The only thing different is the setting.

Chase Me To The End

6. Sorry to disappoint. I knew enough of Wind Waker to know it was still the same old Zelda quest with new features, so I didn't buy it totally blindly. But until Nintendo does something drastic to the Zelda formula, I will still buy it with out having to do research on it because I know I will get exactly what I want from my Zelda title.

Well, okay. It's a difficult judgement for Zelda itself, because most people don't play Zelda for the storyline. And those that do probably pick and choose.
There really isn't a pefrect analogy to every genre. But the point is, Final Fantasy is the one series where the setting and storyline is different every time, except for all the spinoffs and sequels they make, which are ALL crap.
But with every new Final Fantasy, it's like... Imagine if in every Zelda, there was a different protagonist, different setting. Would Zelda still be the same if Link was a robot with laser guns in the future? Because that's clearly not what you look for in a Zelda game, cause as it stands now, you won't find it.
So, if there are some people who are looking for a medievalish fantasy game, they won't find it in FF7, FF8, FF10, or 13... So like, they might only like 4, 5, 9, maybe 6.
And some people want something more futuristic, and they'd enjoy the ones I excluded above.
Maybe some people don't like feminine male protagonists, then they might avoid FF8, for example. The thing is, Final Fantasy is diverse, it is. So I refuse to believe that all those hardcore FF fans are so extremely all accepting of every type of thing in the world. So it's almost like, they adjust their own likes and dislikes just so they can say they like everything about a certain Final Fantasy.
So even if you have... Let's just say, a GameFAQs character poll, where you got a character like Meryl from Metal Gear Solid vs. say, Yuna from FFX. Who's a better character? Meryl, clearly. I mean, she just is. She's got more personality, she's more badass, she's just a better character. But even those Final Fantasy fanboys who played MGS will say, "Final Fantasy! Must vote for Final Fantasy so that Final Fantasy can win!"
Blind devotion, man. Final Fantasy has the biggest amount of blindly devoted fans out of any game series. And that includes the very same game critics who gave FFXII a 9.5.
The same score that FF7 got. Think about that. Now, I'm not an FF7 fanboy, you know that, but still, give credit where credit is due, and FF7 is better than FF12 in every single way, except for the graphics obviously.

1. Hmm, you've run into retarded fans I have not quite so had the pleasure (Or displeasure) to myself.

2. You must be reading different reviews from me.

3. Fragile Dreams got a 6.7 from one reviewer I follow. I still love it, or am in the process of lovin' it.

4. Well, the mixture of awesome graphics, great cinematography and excellent character and story developement is what I'd rather prefer over a game just having superior character developement and exceptionality in other departments.

5. Dude, that was my ENTIRE argument I had when we had our "What is an RPG' debate we held a whiles back. The fact that games with a leveling system are called RPGs is just retarded, as well as games that allow you to name your character even if his frikkin' name is really Link, or Cloud. But hey, I don't want to get into this again. Just dig back and refer to the debate if you want any of my further thoughts on the matter.

6. Do you get to run around in Oblivion shooting monsters and bad guys like you would go about doing so in Gears of War or Uncharted? It's more then just the setting. Plus, Obvlivion I think is in the genre of First Person Adventure, no?

7. Well, preferences aside, I'd still say it be a safe bet to pick up nearly any FF game for a basically guarenteed good 'RPG" experience.

Oh, and sorry Bio, but a futuristic Zelda installment has been something I've been craving for years now...Just one outing, just one...

Like I said earlier above, I never met some of the ravid fanboys you have. I can't imagine anyone adjusting their tastes just for a namesake. That being said, when it comes to tossing tastes aside for a sec, FF is a series so highly regarded because no matter what experience it offers, it usually always delivers well, sometimes extraordinarily.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Chase Me To The End

1. Hmm, you've run into retarded fans I have not quite so had the pleasure (Or displeasure) to myself.

You've never went on Gaia's "Games" forum? Well, maybe you're right. Gaia's Games forum attracts retards and noobs from all corners of gaming, not just Final Fantasy. But none defend their favorite game so rabidly as FF fans.

Chase Me To The End

3. Fragile Dreams got a 6.7 from one reviewer I follow. I still love it, or am in the process of lovin' it.

Okay, a better question would be, have you ever played a game that got 9.0 - 10 rating, and hated it?

Chase Me To The End

4. Well, the mixture of awesome graphics, great cinematography and excellent character and story developement is what I'd rather prefer over a game just having superior character developement and exceptionality in other departments.

The story development in Persona is superior too. The plot twists in it are really well done and unpredictable. Just because it's more grounded and isn't set in some overly flamboyant Fantasy land, doesn't make it any less awesome.
And heck, the gameplay is awesome, too. The battle system is fully turn based, but faster and more interesting than most FF games, up to and including FFX. The Persona system is largely like Pokemon for adults.
And it has actual ROLE PLAYING. You choose conversation paths, make social links with all kinds of characters. Not just watching what happens to other characters.. I mean, look at Lightning. She's the protagonist, and all I ever hear is, "She's a b***h."

Chase Me To The End

5. Dude, that was my ENTIRE argument I had when we had our "What is an RPG' debate we held a whiles back. The fact that games with a leveling system are called RPGs is just retarded, as well as games that allow you to name your character even if his frikkin' name is really Link, or Cloud. But hey, I don't want to get into this again. Just dig back and refer to the debate if you want any of my further thoughts on the matter.

Yeah, but you still went with, "Well, if everyone else says it's a Role Playing Game, then it is." And yeah, I'll be referring to Final Fantasy as an RPG, but here's the thing... We're discussing the genre itself. And taking Role Playing elements away from an RPG, does not push the RPG genre forward. It's just diluting it with other genres.

Chase Me To The End

6. Do you get to run around in Oblivion shooting monsters and bad guys like you would go about doing so in Gears of War or Uncharted? It's more then just the setting. Plus, Obvlivion I think is in the genre of First Person Adventure, no?

No. Oblivion is an RPG. Yeah, it's first person, but you name your character, choose your conversation, level up, go dungeon crawling, doing quests. It's everything a Western RPG should be. And if you choose to do so, you can zoom out from first person into third person. Same with Fallout 3, I wouldn't have gotten it otherwise. And yea, Fallout 3 is largely centered around firearms, but that's only because of the nature of the setting. But it's still filled with tons of Melee weapons of varying strentghs, that you have to maintain and repair. That you can sell to merchants, or buy from merchants. Same with armor, which can protect you against poison, radiation. You level up, and you choose which specs to increase in your character. If you want you can make your character a shitty fighter, who's really charismatic (makes it easier to convince and lie to people), a great lock picker, medic, and computer hacker. Or vice versa, you can make them a brute whose idea of diplomacy is a minigun.

Chase Me To The End

7. Well, preferences aside, I'd still say it be a safe bet to pick up nearly any FF game for a basically guarenteed good 'RPG" experience.

But that all depends on what you define as an RPG experience. And if you define it as turn based combat, world map, random encounters, dugeons and towns, merchants and things of that nature, Final Fantasy is slowly weeding them out, it seems. If all you care about is leveling up and the combat system, then yeah, if that's how you define an RPG, then all but FF12 would be considered a good experience.

Chase Me To The End

Oh, and sorry Bio, but a futuristic Zelda installment has been something I've been craving for years now...Just one outing, just one...

Well, umm... s**t, I dunno.... What Zelda wouldn't you like? Feudal Japan Zelda? Cyber Punk Zelda? Mario Zelda?? Ooh, Zelda the Musical! Hahah!

Chase Me To The End

Like I said earlier above, I never met some of the ravid fanboys you have. I can't imagine anyone adjusting their tastes just for a namesake. That being said, when it comes to tossing tastes aside for a sec, FF is a series so highly regarded because no matter what experience it offers, it usually always delivers well, sometimes extraordinarily.

Not for the past 9 years. Like I said, I'm convinced that if it wasn't for the title, most of the "Final Fantasy" installments released between 2001 and 2009 wouldn't have sold half as well. And that includes the main series AND the s**t spinoffs.

I have proof, sorta... There was a game that came out for PS1 called Ehrgeiz, made by Square. (If you know about it, then skip til the end of this paragraph. Or read on if you still wanna.) It was a fighting game, with an RPG built into it. Pretty cool concept, some interesting Tekken-like characters. A really cool fighting system.... It was a solid game. The kicker was that it featured Cloud, Tifa, Sephiroth, Vincent, Yuffie and Zack. Epic, right?

It got great reviews (hell of a lot better than Dirge, that's for damn sure). But, the game sold very underwhelmingly, even in Japan.
I guarantee that if it had "Final Fantasy" in the title, it could've made Greatest Hits easily. Dirge did.