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 Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:06 am
As the title says, and really, in modern times where people are being sucked into the masses and working their asses off at poor jobs they hate and kids eating themselves thin and girls sexing themselves up and throwing themselves at guys, and vice versa; technology and science *which technically, originated from philosophy* are taking over the world and consumers, well... consuming them without a second thought all the while using the earth as a waste land, of course, as long as it isn't near the important people, it doesn't matter. Philosophy here is no longer in a kings high court, it's like ToK *theory of knowledge* which is just a bunch of circles, no 'right' or 'wrong', and 'oh dearz it's making my head hurt so shut up' and well... useless :" Philosophy is useless.
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:38 am
I think your confusing philosophy with ethics and all that with maturity and education.
The "whats right or wrong" deficit of popular America might be chalked up to a lack of practical communication skills in parents. What a lot of us younger gens are discovering, is that the thorough, complete, and open education, more mature and sound decisions can be made. But when authority figures, like parents and teachers, sugar coat the truth about things like sex, drugs, human nature, etc, they actually create the hole that everyone sees as a problem but no one takes any steps to fix.
Case in point, my parents didn't attempt "the talk" until I was 17, and quite frankly, even at 14, I could have doubled the high school health teacher's knowledge of the mechanics of sex. Also, because of life-long "respect your elders" and "don't be violent" conditioning, I never learned how to say "no" to unwanted advances until it was really too late. And I won't even start with the detrimental effect of early "Disney-fied" fairytales had on collective maturity.
Philosophy is a mental exercise that is supposed to broaden one's mind. Problem is that all the sheep out there, who follow the trends for their own sake, don't want to work on their character. They want to buy it. Label it. Wear it. Blog it. Philosophy isn't useless. It's used less.
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ScarletFrost Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:43 am
I have to agree to a point with you scarlet.
While it is true people want things to come easy for the etter part of the world, a single spark can still change a person from a simple sheep flocked with everyone else to a self actualizing individual. Atleast thats how I have seen it happen.
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:47 am
I agree with Scarlet. There is a difference between philosophy and ethics. You seem to be talking about ethics. Philosophy is a study or discussion over things like religion, ethics, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. I wouldn't even say it is used less, because a lot of people discuss these sorts of topics. It is just not used in the grand public, government scale.
I would never consider discussing knowledge something that is useless.
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Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:08 pm
Underworld Priestess I agree with Scarlet. There is a difference between philosophy and ethics. You seem to be talking about ethics. Philosophy is a study or discussion over things like religion, ethics, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language. I wouldn't even say it is used less, because a lot of people discuss these sorts of topics. It is just not used in the grand public, government scale. I would never consider discussing knowledge something that is useless. What she said... kingcorrupted While it is true people want things to come easy for the etter part of the world, a single spark can still change a person from a simple sheep flocked with everyone else to a self actualizing individual. Atleast thats how I have seen it happen. And he said... ScarletFrost Philosophy is a mental exercise that is supposed to broaden one's mind. Problem is that all the sheep out there, who follow the trends for their own sake, don't want to work on their character. They want to buy it. Label it. Wear it. Blog it. Philosophy isn't useless. It's used less. And she said... Philosophy was a forerunner of Science among other things(as you stated) which lead to several advancements. Some of those may be misused, but for the most part those advancements have bettered our lives. Philosophy is a major part of our evolution as a species. Philosophy is a forum for those of like and unlike minds to get together, debate, and compare notes. I think that if Philosophy was given a larger role in today's education, then today's generations would be better equipped to think for themselves.
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 12:09 am
Philisophical ethics is said to be the most usefull and used branch of philosophy, and I'm sorry if my first note seemed to soak into that branch there.
I mean philosophy in itself, though as Priestess wrote that people discuss their philosophies, but it doesn't mean their doing it philosophically. Philosophy in itself is poorly viewed as some dark age, head-in-the-clouds subject or hobby. You can't get money from it, or get famous or recognition, and so it's clumped with art and writing but even lower. People are acting like sheep, becuase they can survive without philosophy and still sound smart and wise when talking about sports, or the economy, or politics, or science. And when they do try to dabble in philosophy, they say a couple deep things and think they've mastered it all.
To them, to the majority of the world, they have their own 'philosophies' or touch on philosophical subjects, but that doesn't necissarily mean they're doing philosophy, or the right type of philosophy.
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ScarletFrost Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 12:11 pm
Quite honestly, philosophy as a discipline is no longer taught, unless you really get into the higher reaches of education in liberal arts. Even debate teams are rare and small these days. The word "philosophy" is thrown around a lot because people mistakenly confuse the terms "my opinion" with "my philosophy." They think that "philosophy" makes them sound smarter. stressed
I took an actual philosophy class on Ethics, and it was interesting but the teacher's approach to teaching stank. It was like "Lets introduce things which you can philosophize about, but not actually follow through with the process." It didn't help that a lot of the articles we were supposed to comment on the ethics of were out of date. Like an article on embryonic stem cell research from 2007. Problem is that since 2007, stem cell research has progressed so far that the "embryonic" part is all but obsolete (processed adult stem cells and umbilical cord blood cells have replaced them as more effective and readily available options), and really that's what the ethical debate was supposed to be about.
So not only is philosophy not actively sought out knowledge, it isn't even taught, really. We're actually philosophizing with in discussion boards like this. And even then, it takes a lot of energy to read everyone's arguments, consider them, and answer back intelligently. Also, it takes a level of maturity to yield on a point or take a non-trollish stand on something. There have been so many times when something will set people off, and they feel the best way to forward their point of view is to curse at you and call you names and try to discredit you, instead of directly debating the point. That isn't philosophizing. That's just being mean.
But philosophy is by no means dead or useless. It is alive and well in other forms, known by other names, and used by intelligent non-sheep. Like in debates about behavioral psychology, war-time PR, or economic projections. Discussions like this go on all the time behind closed doors. Those with the ability to clearly think philosophize all the time in board meetings and club gatherings and such like. Sure, they don't call it philosophy anymore, but notice how those who have the head for philosophy are the most successful in areas where it is covertly applied.
You might even say that the discipline of philosophy has been integrated into everything until it has lost its own identity. Sure, in health class, they don't tell you that you're philosophizing when they're lecturing about the dangers of teen sex, but I'd bet that just about every student is developing their own opinion, and the majority of them will discuss it at a later time, philosophize about the pros and cons, the application, the appropriateness in certain situations, etc.
And this is why education is so important. Because you can't effectively philosophize without all the facts. In fact, I'd say it's dangerous to try. But then, see my first post for rants about the lack of open and complete education. stressed
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Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 9:33 am
I agree with Scarlet's post, that it is still alive and used. It is just not on a grand scale
I disagree with philosophy being seen as some dark aged, head in the clouds, hobby.
I went to a Baptist college and they made you take either Philosophy or Philosophy and Ethics in order to graduate from there. There are quite a few schools that offer those types of classes.
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 5:34 am
@Priestess: quite a few schools indeed, but that's that, a few. Though i've heard of people trying to bring it out into more schools and such.
Anywhooz, i think i've dragged out this conversation as much as I could. A real 'I think philosophy is useless' opinionated person could probably stick to their argument better, but it's hard when you're not that kind of person :" 3 I agree and understand with everything you've all said, but i've learnt that sometimes to learn more about something is to take the opposite point of view *learnt from a really awesome philosophy teacher!* and so far, you guys brought out things that i half understood and whatnot~!
so thanx for you're input, and in case it wasn't obviouse, i do not think philosophy is a useless, head-in-the-cloud hobby, and that that point of view is no where near modern thinking *just look at socrates and Plato's Republic, and etc.*
awesome refutation guyz.~ thumbz up on all yer mature, and sorry to say slightly dry, stand against this thing.... probably dry cause i'm still so childish, ha...
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Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 12:04 pm
I don't know if philosophy is necessarily particularly useful. It's not necessarily based on science (in the simplest of senses, meaning naturalistic observation) -- often it's not, and it has a huge potential to be completely incorrect.
I don't know if philosophy is meant to serve a utilitarian purpose though. It can, but it doesn't necessarily. Political and social philosophy can be useful for example. It provides discussion based on theoretical governance. But things such as philosophy of psychology (I'll use Freud as an example) is just distracting, mostly incorrect and virtually useless on most levels.
All in all, philosophy is kind of an inevitability based on other discourse. It's induction based on a series of beliefs. It can be wrong, and it can totally worthless sometimes (doesn't mean it always is).
It can engage the mind on a high level, though, and because it is theoretical it can be used to discuss pretty much anything. The word, "philosophy," on its own is incredibly broad. It's hard to make any kind of generalization when the term is so broadly defined.
Liberal arts education has too much focus on credentials in modern days. Not so much on the doing, but the gaining of titles. There's less you can do with a major in philosophy today, and less you can do, in general if you're majoring in the liberal arts.
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 12:50 am
@Figuren: philosophy isn't utilitarian 0_0 and actually, science originated from philosophy, but branched out because it started using more observation than logic and reasoning therefore it's segregated and became that much more competely correct... sarcasm good sirs. Never heard of all the incorrect scientific theories out there? We're human, and most, if not all, scientific discoveries are still simply theories. And if some philsosophers are right, it is completely pointeless to study reality since everything is in flux, or our perception and deductive reasoning by reflecting and getting used to reality is wrong or only 'some cases'... meh etc. can't really explain it but some of that is ... this dude x' D darnit forgot his name, the one who says, "then commit it to flames," or something like that~
Philosophy has not alot of material value, unless you teach it or write some sorta super awesome philosophy book on it, you don't really get money from it because, first of, philosophy isn't about using it to gain material goods. It is of mental value. Philosophy is what detaches us from living like robots following commands left and right. It's what allows us, or some of us, to try and live a good life isntead being sheep... or fish being baited here and there and whatnot.
It all really depends on what you hold to the meaning of usefull. If usefull means it puts food on the table maybe not so much. But it certainly helps balance the material reality we live in, hoard, and occationally give~
and and and :" D on the topic of sheep, did you know they cannot drink from running water?!
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 5:34 pm
dark meion gashe Never heard of all the incorrect scientific theories out there? We're human, and most, if not all, scientific discoveries are still simply theories.
In other words philosophy doesn't necessarily have any point of reference (regardless of where science originated), whereas that is a requirement in science. I'm not saying that we know everything by any means, but rather that science requires more points of reference than philosophy does. It doesn't make it any less valid necessarily. It's still healthy to think about things, because ultimately that's how we attach meaning to our world.
Science easily has the best track record for explaining natural and social phenomena, though.
It's important to realize that theory is not just an, "idea." An accepted theory is one that best explains any grouping of facts. That's how it's defined. Theories come and go because as they're developed we gain new insight that brings doubt to previous explanations.
Problems come in where people are presumptuous in assuming that their facts mean a lot more than they do, or in the case where they deny certain evidence to confirm their own beliefs.
There are some problems with certain scientific research and I know this, but it does not discount the method.
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Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:22 am
And yet, just suddenly thought of this, it is philosophy that makes us different. Philosophy and belief and opinion. Science is like a less reliable version of Math, but learning about it doesn't really define us quite like what we think.
Science can only take you so far, same with Math, and any and everything else that makes us know. And philosophers of all degrees use these 'ground' knowledge to base their philosophies of, like Pathagoris saying everything works mathematically, and Aristotle using emprical observation *basic basic science~y stuff* for his justificaton on his view of 'happiness'.
I don't know where i'm going with this, but go i shall. Rules are made, laws, whatever, and we just keep twisting them to shape what we believe, no matter how negatively shallow that kinda sounded. We believe things, certain 'facts' are our excuses in justifyin those beliefes, and even without them we still believe, cause the set stuff, we pick and discgard until we create our little reasoning. Kinda ignorant I know but it happens. We look for our little excuses, like you've mentioned... now another thing would be to philosophise how problematic that is... haha
But no matter how much science explains and makes us best 'understand' and develop that understanding of the world, it only goes so far before gets murked up with the human mind.
Sometimes i feel like, with every 'new' discovery or explanation science bumps up, we tend to forget or discard an older discovery, so outdated and unmodern it's forgotten... they say we know more and more with every passing time, but if it's just gain and loose, maybe it's still all the same?
i dunno if i kinda got off tangent *kinda feels like that* but it felt like this convo still had some juice running in it and i couldn't let that die~
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Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:26 pm
it most definately does. i can say this, that it would be impossible to even discuss this topic without it turning into philosophy in and of itself. see? right there i just did it! xd but i don't think the point of the discourse is to philosophize in this case, but rather to acknowledge. i have to admit, as far as surviving materialy in this world, philosophy seems to only be usefull in subtle ways, in our conduct-making, our sanity-preservation, or in filling that empty time. but it certaintly doesn't put a roof over our heads, or put bread on the table.
i somehow can't seem to even imagine there being a point to life without the ironically pointless act of thinking and philosophizing...
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Chieftain Twilight Captain
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