Mario, Storylines and other random crap

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Chase Me To The End

@Darling: Don't misunderstand me. I appreciate ultra violent games too (i.e. No More Heroes is one of my favorite games of all time). But when the casual market literally becomes a game like Modern Warfare 2, where 20 million kids of all ages (Could be 10, could be 30) get off on shooting each other in the head and then t-bagging their dead opponet (p.s. Games like that are my main gripe. Yeah, sure, God of War is ultra violent, but at least you don't go around acting like a douchebag while playing. It's the combo of being a savage and douchebag that really irks me)...Then yeah, they're savage douchebags (Savage isn't a strong word. F***ing is). And don't get my word choice wrong. Savage is an adjective, which means it describes what type of douchebag you are (Hooray for grammar school lessons). I'm not calling anyone seperately a savage...Sorta. Although earlier I said we're all half savages, that's not a bad thing. That's just how were programmed on an instictual level. I mean...We're apes, and we sure as s**t act like 'em. If you don't think so, then you need to get off the high and mighty human throne and accept that fact that you work on a primitive level. And if you're a religious person, I'm not even going there...

Savage can be a noun too.

Chase Me To The End

@Bio:

1. I didn't go to see The Matrix (Or Avatar for that matter) for the special effects. And the action aesthetic is a part of the story; It's not on the same level as the movie's structure (Rather than the story's structure), which involves cinematography and editing and what not.

That's not entirely true. The action is more a part of the production quality than the story. If the action is badly done, if they have some crappy fight scenes, cheap explosions, obviously visible stunt doubles, it can make a good movie into a bad movie. Best case scenario, people are gonna love how horribly cheesy it is. But it still tells the same story.

Chase Me To The End

3. Well, name me the games then.

Rule of Rose is one. Great Adventure-Horror title, even though the gameplay isn't all that fun. The first Syphon Filter, and even the second one to an extent. Hell, the original Silent Hill is the perfect example of this. The gameplay is only slightly better than games like "Evil Dead: Hail To The King" and still, it was successful, and loved, and spawned the greatest Survival Horror franchise in history. And yes, I stand by that statement.

Chase Me To The End

4. F*** bringing the music medium forward. 80's vibe bands FTW! Today's rock and roll sucks anyway...

Well, you're living in the past, man. Get with the times. Look, Rock and Roll might suck now, but I barely hear it anyway. But look at, say, Metal. Yes, we have some shitty metal today, the overload of nu-metal, death metal, black metal is derivative and unncecessary, and sometimes even 'unlistenable', but expand your horizons. For example, take symphonic metal, stuff like Nightwish, Epica, or Within Temptation. That music is majestic. It's just beautiful. But it didn't exist until the mid 90's.
And you know I love Queen. But as much as I love their 1970's classics like Bohemian Rhapsody and Somebody to Love, I think Queen's best... Their most sophisticated (musically) and most ingenious songs came way later on, a lot closer to Freddie's death.
Songs like Princes of the Universe, I Want It All, and Innuendo... They're works of genius and they all came after 1985. And if Freddie Mercury hadn't died... God... I can't even fathom what kind of sheer genius they would have come up with toward the latter half of the 1990's, and in the 2000's.

Chase Me To The End

And why should a game like NSMBWii be only worth 15 dollars just because it doesn't bring the medium forward? That's stupid.

No, because it's a throwback game. It's like, "Oh, this is just like what I used to play in the 1980's, early 90's, only upgraded graphics."
What makes NSMBWii so different from, say, that remake of the original Prince of Persia or Bionic Commando or TMNT Turtles In Time that's downloadable for $10?

Chase Me To The End

5. So, even if Tetris can be a truly great puzzle game, then it can't be an overall truly great game...Huh? So does that mean Uncharted 2 is only a truly great action/adventure game, or REmake is a truly great survival horror game...?

Well, no, because those games DO have the qualities it takes to leave someone with a great impression after they beat it. Whether it's fear or awe, or what have you. I mean, think about the developement of the games... Tetris is simple programming. Look at Uncharted or Remake and think about how much time and effort it took to make something like that. And not only to make what you see, but to make sure it played as awesome as it does. It takes teams of 50+ people years to develop. Tetris could be made in probably a matter of days by no more than 3 decent programmers. Heck, Tetris was originally made by ONE person. And yes, Alex Pajitnov is a genius for designing a puzzle game like Tetris. And it is a lot of fun. But it doesn't make it a truly great gaming experience that leaves you with a great impression. But you know what? I'll take tetris over any SMB remake any day.

Chase Me To The End

6. Sure, I said he deserves to be overglorified, but that doesn't mean I go about doing it other than by pointing out the facts, or general opinion. And the reason why people praise games like Super Mario 64 over Banjo-Kazooie is because they believe a game is better if it had a greater impact on the genre, or on gaming entirely...At least, that's my logical guess...

Well, that still doesn't change the fact that Banjo Kazooie played better, had MUCH better level design, graphics, even music. More gameplay features, like the ability to fly... It was amazing.

Thee Stranger

Okay. Well, your problem, as I understood it, was that Nintendo doesn't support these M-rated games enough. Because Nintendo is kiddie, and that's all they care about is kiddie s**t. And that they don't promote any M-rated s**t. And don't want to have anything to do with M-rated s**t. So I pointed out the fact that, yes, they did promote the Wii s**t such as MadWorld and Conduit. Also, when the Gamecube was kicking off, they acquired the Resident Evil franchise's exclusivity. Miyamoto met up with Kojima (good friends who respect each other, and their respective works - imagine that!) and asked him to do an MGS game for the Gamecube, just like how Kojima later asked Nintendo to include Snake in a certain little game that included MARIO in it. Here's a little video footage from that dickhead who created Mario that you might find interesting.

Well, as I recall, he also made a little deal to have the main RE series be exclusively for the GameCube. And yes, during the GameCube era, they actually put some effort into trying to bring some adult franchises closer to Nintendo. But the GameCube was also I'd say the least successful console of the previous generation.

Thee Stranger

And Nintendo has co-developed and published M-rated titles such as Eternal Darkness and Geist. They also published Fatal Frame 4 as well, on the Wii. Well, Nintendo of Japan did. Nintendo of America didn't for some dumb reason. So now everyone has to download the patch and import it in order to play it in English. Boo, NoA. Point being, Nintendo is interested in providing a range of content for the console. Unfortunately, all the M-rated s**t that Sega brought to the Wii that was really supposed to crack open that M-rated Wii market flopped. So naturally, developers are a little wary of bringing that kind of content to the console. Yes, that does sadden me. Because I would love nothing more than for Nintendo to be able to ditch the whole kiddie stigma, so people like you would just shut the ******** already. So you can blame Nintendo's image for it, or you can blame its demographic of core gamers, but you can't say they didn't ********' try.

Okay, so they tried. But the fact still remains, right now the Wii is stuck pigeon holed as a kiddie platform because, like we established, it's a never ending cycle. And sure it sucks for Nintendo, but that still doesn't change the fact that it makes for a deficit of deep, intriguing games with intricate storylines.
I mean, you mentioned the Fatal Frame issue... Just the fact that people are compelled to go through such great lengths to import it, get a patch, etc. just shows that Wii owners are in desperate need of good, mature Wii titles.
And even the E-Rated titles. How many E-Rated games on the Wii are actually hardcore games with deep gameplay, intriguing storylines and high budget voice acting? And how many of them are simple and casual? And out of those simple and casual, how many are actually great?

Thee Stranger

And even though The Conduit failed to win me over, I did very much enjoy MadWorld and Overkill. And they're on Nintendo's console. Props, Sega. And those aren't the only exclusive M-rated games I own and have enjoyed on Nintendo's console. And M-rated games, though fewer than PS3 and 360, do stll come to the Wii. And some do fairly well; the various Call of Duty games being the prime examples. That's right. Online FPS games. And you know what? I like FPS controls BETTER on the Wii than I do the other two. Motion controls actually DO spice up the stale-a** FPS genre for me. Try Medal of Honor Heroes 2 on the Wii sometime. I played THAT game a lot more than I played Killzone 2. I had more fun with it. And it didn't have Killzone 2's insane graphics. ******** sue me.

Well, since I don't generally like FPS games, the story and the graphics are pretty much the only thing that'll carry me through one. It's the storyline that actually makes me want to get The Darkness.

Thee Stranger

I'll tell you why it matters. Remember a while back when we were having this whole console war discussion before, and I TOLD you that I never tried to argue that you, Bio, should own a ******** Wii. It is quite apparent that it is not the console for you. And I'm not trying to argue that now.

I know you're not. My point is, that's the reasoning for my statement. I say, "There aren't enough M-Rated games for the Wii." Maybe there's enough for you, but I don't think there is. In fact, right from Day 1, when it came to the console wars, I said it right out, every person is different, and some consoles are not right for some people, and others are. Like, the PS3... Is it perfect? No. But this generation it's as close as it gets to perfection for me, why? Because it's the right one for ME. And to those of us who don't have all 3, it's a big decision.

Thee Stranger

Though I would imagine you'd enjoy games such as MadWorld, there's obviously not enough of that there for you. And I don't hate you for not liking the ******** Wii. It's got its problems. I'm perfectly willing to admit that. Just like the PS3 and 360 have their problems. Honestly, I think the Wii should have had the capabilities of the Wiimotion Plus out of the box on launch date. Instead of having to wait four years later for it to work exactly how it's supposed to. And it's easy to just look at the console at face value, judge it by its cover, and just dismiss it based on the shovelware, and the graphics, and the "gimmicks", and the "casual" s**t. It's quite easy to hate on the Wii. The good things I list to counter you in defense of it are the reasons that I own the Wii.

Like I said. I owned a Wii, and when I looked at the titles it already had, and the titles that it was going to have in the future, I was like, "So what am I gonna play?"
And yes, you do list some good things about it, but those that actually matter to me, there isn't enough of. And yes, it only pertains to me, and it's my measely opinion. But technically every statement is an opinion. I mean, I'd say something like, "There's too much shovelware on the Wii, and there aren't enough serious titles" or "In my humble opinion, there's too much shovelware..." What's the difference? Frankly, "In my humble opinion" to me, is a statement that people use to say, "Not to hurt your feelings, but I disagree with..." Which is something I might use in a setting where I'm new, or I don't know many people. But in this guild, I'll say it like it is. We all know each other good enough not to add little statements to make our opinions seem less 'harsh.'

Thee Stranger

Mario Kart Wii is a quality racing game game with a PLETHORA of content, tracks, and replay value.

And how does that differ from other racing games? How does that differ from Gran Turismo games? The same statement could be applied to them, but do you own any GT games? Or even on a more arcady level, how many other casual racing games do you own? Cause I know plenty of people who never cared for a racing game in their lives, but went out to get Mario Kart because it's Mario.

Thee Stranger

It's well worth the asking price. Who the ******** are you to say what should and shouldn't sell well, Bio? And who the ******** are you to tell me what I should or shouldn't get excited about? ******** off.

Well, thanks for that. But to answer your question, I'm someone who's not blinded by the hype of a certain label, or franchise, or mascot. Final Fantasy games shouldn't sell JUST because they say "Final Fantasy" on them. But that's why a lot of people buy them. And half of them don't even get around to beating them. So does Square deserve all that income? I don't think so. Meanwhile, smaller games like, say, Persona 3, even though it's highly praised by everyone who played it, will never see the light of a "Greatst Hit" because "What's Persona?"

Thee Stranger

Okay. So Bionic Commando was a poor example. The Immortal is not. Its gore was in your face. And instant. I didn't need to type in code in order to see the blood in that game. I did in the original Mortal Kombat for Genesis.

To be fair, when Mortal Kombat started out, the majority of its popularity was in the Arcades, not home consoles. And yes, every single person I talked to will tell you otherwise, because they're horribly ignorant. It's actually funny, everyone who owned a Genesis always says, "Well, Mortal Kombat was MAINLY a Genesis game," and SNES people say, "Well, Mortal Kombat was MAINLY on SNES." But the truth is, Arcades.

Thee Stranger

Also, the Immortal was gorier than Mortal Kombat, and its violence was a lot less cheesy. Bash a mace over a goblin's head, and watch its head explode, with its eyeballs flying out and s**t. Fallout 3-style. That's a lot more graphic than anything ever I saw in the original Mortal Kombat.

But again was it a phenomenon? MK was.

Thee Stranger

And no, when you punch a dude, an ounce of blood does not fly out the back of his head. That's not realistic. It's over-the-top and cheesy.

Now it is. But in a time of gaming where there was no blood in most games whatsoever. Or where you beat up an enemy, or shoot them, and they blink twice on the screen, and simply disappear... Compare to that, it's damn realistic.

Thee Stranger

And none of this changes anything in regards to the MadWorld protests, and your logic that it was only due to the kiddie console it was on. They don't discriminate.

Okay, but then why don't people protest other extremely violent games? Like God of War, which has sex in addition to violence?

Thee Stranger

Night Trap for the Sega CD is another game that was also banned in certain countries, and pulled off store shelves due to its "violence". I say that with quotation marks, because the "violence" in Night Trap is so completely laughable, and so completely miniscule, that I don't even feel right calling it violence. And blood? There's an ounce at best. Was Night Trap a huge game? ******** no. I'm the only here who's even played it, because nobody else owned a ******** Sega CD.

Well. As I recall, the big controversy with that game was its 'nudity'. Which I know, is a ridiculous statement, but what happened was, some a*****e military man/politician was walking by his neighbor's house, and he saw it in the window, and I dunno, I guess it offended him, so he started a big protest campaign.

Thee Stranger

Here's a homework assignment: Google Metal Gear Solid sucks. And read about how certain people out there don't understand how MGS sells "stupidly well". I told you why I bought Mario Kart. And hey, I liked Mario Kart on SNES, and N64. It's kinda like Road Rash in a way. So I bought it on the Wii to play wiith some buds. Why did everyone else buy it? Maybe because it had the name Mario in it. Or maybe because they thought it might have been a fun family game, and it came with those kewl steering wheel handles for the Wiimote. You know how much Nintendo loves those ******** gimmicks. Other than that, see the last three sentences of my second paragraph in reply to you.

Oh right. The steering wheel attachment. Alright, so I guess that explains it. No sarcasm.

Thee Stranger

And I'm sorry we unpleasently surprised you. I know you would be a much happier person, and things would be much more right in the world, if Mario had already had his hay day, and everyone had just grown up, like you did, and stopped enjoying his games, so he could just go away and ******** die already like the washed up ******** has-been he is.

Yes, nothing would make me happier. stare

Thee Stranger

Sylvester Stallone already had his hay day. The last Rocky movie shouldn't have done as well as it did in the box office. There's SO many Rocky movies, and he always does the same s**t. They always follow the same structure. Same goes for Rambo. This isn't the 80s anymore. You're old, Sly. You're washed up. Go away. "Oh, but I love Rambo. I grew up watching his movies as a kid. He was my hero! And his movies are awesome!" -- Grow up, Bio. Get over it. It's just Rambo. Nothing to get excited about.

You know, I might agree with you, if, like Mario, there had been a new Rambo movie every 2 years for the past 2.5 decades. But Rambo hasn't been around since 1990, so this new one was still refreshing.

Thee Stranger

We've been there, done that, and it was never that great to begin with.

Yes it was.

Thee Stranger

Not directly. But indirectly? Yeah. I think the hype and the scarceness they created for their console is what drove psychos to shoot people for it. Not blaming Sony for the psychos of the world who would actually do something like that, but if the PS2 didn't have the hype and scarcity it had, a lot less of that stuff would have happened. And that stuff was happening left and right during the PS2 launch. I'm not sure if anyone got shot or beaten in the streets for their Wii, but I know it didn't have the PS2 hype. Everyone knew well in advance that the PS2 was gonna sell like a beast. The Wii was a surprise hit. They anticipate it doing as well as it did.

Really? You think so? From what I've seen, the Wii had more release hype than the PS2. I mean, it was a surprise hit because nobody knew what to expect. But that doesn't change the fact that everyone I know and their mother (literally) was all excited for the Wii's release.

Thee Stranger

Like I said. I don't blame them directly. I blame them indirectly. I'm sure Sony did not wish for anybody to DIE over their console. But, due to their cut-throat business practices, they did inadvertently cause some deaths, muggings, and beatings during their PS2 launch. And yes, it's a business. And yes, Sony did claim up and down that their product was a better product than the Dreamcast. Do I blame Sony for that? No. Of course they're gonna put their product over their competitors. That's the way business rolls. Many of Sega's past mistakes also contributed to their downfall in the hardware market. And I do manily blame the blind consumers and Sony fanboys for the Dreamcast's premature death. In the long run, I'm not crying too much about it, because the PS2 did live up to its name over time. And I had two other consoles to get aside from that. But at the time, yeah, it did burn my tits pretty good.

Still, I mean, by the time the PS2 came out, the Dreamcast already had plenty of good games on it, right? Like, look at the PS3 now. I can honestly say that if Micfosoft like, carpet bombed all Sony shareholders, and Sony simply ceased to exist... I mean, yeah, I'd be pissed that they'd do something so horrible... But as far as my PS3 game collection goes, I'm happy with it.

Thee Stranger

Well, Bio. I'm not you. Which explains why I own a 360 and play Mario games. I probably would have gotten another Lite, though. But I wanted the big screens. So I got the XL. And overall, I'm happy with my purchase. I am enjoying some of the new features. And the jumbo screens.

Well, I gotta give Nintendo that much, I think it was pretty brave of them to release the XL, considering people today b***h about they IPODS being too bulky to carry in their pockets. And after their GBAs, where they had the SP, and then the MICRO, which was just tiny, and now they're actually UPscaling.

Thee Stranger

Well, yeah. They're gonna need it, because they have to download all their games. And they damn well better not stop supporting the 3000. Because I ain't touchin' the mother ********' PSP Go.

Still, I'd love to have a 16 gig HDD on my PSP. It could hold ALL my DLed games and all the music I need.

Thee Stranger

1.) Mario is overglorified? Are you ******** kidding me? If he's anything, he's overhated.

If he's overhated, then why does he win EVERY voted "Best Character" contest?

Thee Stranger

Like I said, if there was no gameplay and it was just a TV show, I wouldn't ********' watch it.

Well, that's the problem. See, I'm at the point where I like playing video games that, if they WERE shows, I WOULD watch them. I would watch Uncharted, I would watch Ratchet and Clank, I would watch Persona, and I'd watch the hell out of MGS.

Thee Stranger

I like involved storylines, too. And if I want something story-heavy, I have other ******** games, and other ******** consoles. Mario has no obligation to deliver me an engrossing storyline.

Yeah, but still. There's plenty of games out there that can deliver the exact same type of fun as Mario, and still deliver a stellar storyline.

Thee Stranger

Likewise, Mario knows his strengths and his weaknesses, so he focuses on his strong suits. Which, in Mario's case, is the gameplay. Not the story. So he doesn't bother you with that too much.

Well, how the hell do we know? I have yet to see a Mario game where they TRY for a deep and engaging storyline. How do you know it wouldn't be a hit?

Thee Stranger

He wasn't created in the 3D-era, where scripts and voiceovers are now the norm, like as Ratchet & Clank or Zak & Dexter. He was created in an era where there was barely, if any, dialogue at all. Or storyline for that matter.

Same could be said for Prince of Persia, but it still evolved into an epic game with a great storyline.

Thee Stranger

Regarding Mario is only the best platformer right now because there's no other better platformers out right now: Do you realize how moronic you sound?

I don't. Okay, put it this way, let's take Jak & Daxter, which was developed by Naughty Dog. I would say that franchise is the best platformer of the previous generation. Feel free to argue, but it sure as hell wasn't Mario Sunshine.
My point is, if Naughty Dog hadn't started Uncharted, if they started a new Mario-type platformer, or even if they went on to continue working on the Jak franchise, I bet it would be better than SMG. And that's speaking from a purely platformer point of view.
If you take games like Ratchet and Clank, which takes a platformer and combines it with a shooter, a plane shooter and a teeny bit with RPG, then you got a whole new beast. Almost a combination of Mario and Star Fox. That's some serious awesomeness. I'm sorry you don't see that.

Thee Stranger

And regarding Banjo Kazooie: Well, Mario 64, while it is a game that even I am not the most fond of, pioneered this whole 3D platforming bullshit. So it wasn't perfect. But it laid out the groundwork for Banjo. And Banjo came later and did it better. It damn well better have been better. It came years later. From a very talented developer. Mario 64 didn't have a point of reference. It didn't have the advantage of being able to learn from its peers' mistakes.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying, Mario paved the way, then fell behind, or to the side I should say with Mario Party etc. And hell, maybe it got back to being the king of platformers with SMG, but even then, I can't give you an honest opinion, because no I may not have played Mario Galaxy extensively, but the fact is, I'm not compelled to.

Thee Stranger

3.) Videogames are not movies. They are videogames. CUTSCENES are movies. When you're watching a cutscene, you are not doing anything. You are not playing the game. You are watching a short film clip.

Well, to be fair, you know as well as I do that today, developers take measures to make cutscenes a lot more interactive. MGS4 was an example of that with the flashbacks, and Peace Walker takes it even further with the shooting sequences, and better zoom capabilities during the cutscenes. Not to mention every other game and its cousin that implements quicktime sequences. For all intents and purposes, those are interactive cutscenes.
But more to the point, Video Games are stories. Any way you put it, once the video game avatar looked like a stick man with a head and legs and arms, or a car with wheels and went to do a recognizable action, it became a story. A car started racing against other cars, but drove into the ditch a few times and lost a race. That's a story. Sure, maybe not an incredibly interesting one, but it's a story.

Thee Stranger

Yes. Pong and Tetris are interactive movies.

Well, Pong is an interactive game of Table Tennis. Which can be a televised sports event. So okay, video games are interactive TV entertainment. Happy?

Tetris is a puzzle game, and like I said, puzzle games are obviously different. I mean, you can't compare Tetris, to even Mario, in terms of context. Tetris has no context, it's not a thing. It's a brain teaser. (Although, I'm sure someone with enough imagination COULD give it context and make it into a story. Heck, I'm compelled to do it myself.). Mario, even in its most crude form, is a guy with a moustache squashing malicious turtles. Or a guy with a moustache who climbs ladders to save a girl from a giant gorilla. That's a story. And at its core a movie is nothing more than an audio-visual representation of a story. Just like a video game, only in a video game, there's also an interactive aspect added to the audio and the visual.

Thee Stranger

I play videgoames for the gameplay, not the story. If there is a good story there, then good, if not, as long as it's entertaining, I'm happy.

Well, then you're clearly not looking at the big picture. You can't just say, "Video games are just gameplay, and everything else is just tacked on as a bonus." Okay, look at Metal Gear Solid... Is it a fun game? Sure, of course it is. But the storyline plays a major part in that. You're not gonna catch me wasting my time on VR missions.

Thee Stranger

a representation (as of a story) by means of motion pictures

Aside from puzzle games, this describes pretty much every video game too. There's pictures--avatars--and you give them motion. Like I said, at the very basic, "I went to the grocery store and got some milk," is a story. Except in the video games' case it's a, "I went to the grocery store to get some milk and ninjas attacked me." Which is more exciting. But even taking things like online FPS games. Counter Strike, for example. "A team of special forces stages an attack on a terrorist hideout where terrorists are holding hostages. The terrorists retaliate and get killed, with the hostages getting safely rescued." Even that in itself is a story. Mind you, not one interesting enough to engage MY attention for very long, but it is a story.  

[King of Paradise]

1. Yeah, I meant in that case it was an adjective. 3nodding

But, on the other hand, it's pretty obvious I knew it could be a noun, seeing as how I used it as a noun in a few sentences after the case...

2. Everything is a production quality in a movie...Even the story, and how it's told. But the action is directly related to the story. I can't say the same thing about how the movie is edited or how it is shot, composed, or whatever else may have you...Unless, of course, the music playing is actually playing in the movie, or if the camera is doing a p.o.v. shot, but that's barely contingent to the story compared to the action anyways.

3. Can't say much for most of those, but I thought the original Silent Hill was well recieved overall...Even it's gameplay. I mean, from what little I played the gameplay didn't seem that bad to have all the other elements pick up the game...

4. Why would I want to get with the times when today's rock and roll sucks? I'd rather not take my time searching for the gems when it's so much easier to turn a corner in the 60s, 70s, and 80s and find those era's gems all right there.

5. Bio, that makes absolutely no sense.

I can easily say about Uncharted 2 "Oh, this is just like what I used to play in 2007, only upgraded graphics".

What makes it so different is the exact reason that makes Uncharted 2 so different from Uncharted 1...Which is not a whole lot, yet I have to pay 60 bucks for Uncharted 2 anyways, don't I?

Let's go down the list:

Both U2 and NSMBW have excellent and expensive production values: Check.
Both U2 and NSMBW have similar gameplay to their past counterparts with some variations on the formula: Check
Both U2 and NSMBW feature new story, level, etc. content: Check
...And the list goes on and on with similarities.

I mean, how the hell does it make sense that just because a game is a so called "throwback" that it should be worth only 15 bucks, when technically every similar sequel is a "throwback". Time range matters not.

6. Yeah, Bio, think how much frikkin' time and effort went into making NSMBW.

And didn't I say drop this point if you think a game could only be a truly great game if it "moves" you, and leave a lasting impression on you "emotionally"? That's your view, and one that I will never share.

7. Yeah, but Banjo-Kazooie didn't revolutionize shi*. And the point I was making is people prefer the revolutionaries over all else.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Chase Me To The End

2. Everything is a production quality in a movie...Even the story, and how it's told. But the action is directly related to the story. I can't say the same thing about how the movie is edited or how it is shot, composed, or whatever else may have you...Unless, of course, the music playing is actually playing in the movie, or if the camera is doing a p.o.v. shot, but that's barely contingent to the story compared to the action anyways.

Yeah, but if you wanna take it to THAT level, then I could even say that the story in a video game is directly related to its gameplay. I mean, Metal Gear Solid is about nuclear threats, espionage, soldiers, etc. Why? Because Kojima wanted to make an action game where the idea was to NOT encounter enemies. In other words, his idea for this interesting method of gameplay spawned an amazing storyline that gives the gameplay context.
Why is Nathan Drake climbing blocks of geometry? Because those blocks are mountains, and he's trying to get to some ruins that might have treasure hidden there.
Actually Resident Evil 4 is an excellent example of this. I hate Resident Evil 4 for a number of reasons, but one of the reasons other people don't like it (including myself) is that there are no zombies.
By itself, the Las Plagas storyline COULD work, if it was its own franchise. But in the context of Resident Evil it's like... At that point, when people bought a Resident Evil game what came to their mind? "I wanna shoot some zombies, just like the ones in Romero movies!" And it's that storyline that gives the gameplay context.
And in the case of RE4, the storyline said, "No, these aren't zombies," so you can't even say, "I'm gonna play RE4 to shoot some zombies" because you're not gonna find them.
Another example is the recently common moral choices in games. I mean, you're playing through a game... Let's say a game like Fallout 3 or Mass Effect... What do you do? You select what your character says. And it affects how other characters interact with your character, and how they'll fell about your character later on, and even how OTHER characters will perceive you. That's a gameplay element, but it's directly tied into the storyline. So without a storyline, both Mass Effect and Fallout 3 would suck. Today, story is an important element in gaming.

Chase Me To The End

3. Can't say much for most of those, but I thought the original Silent Hill was well recieved overall...Even it's gameplay. I mean, from what little I played the gameplay didn't seem that bad to have all the other elements pick up the game...

Yes, it was well received. I'm telling you from my own personal opinion, the running is clumsy, it takes like 6 feet of slowdown for the character to actually stop. The weapon system can be buggy, in that, sometimes you won't be aiming at the enemy you want. I mean, they're relatively small issues, but they can make the game very frustrating at times.
And a few of the latter Silent Hill games experience some of these issues as well. For example, in Silent Hill 3, you don't NEED to press the "Aim" button to attack an enemy if the enemy is close to you, you just push the action button. So, if you're near a door, and the enemy is close to you, every once in a while, the character will attempt to attack rather than open the door to get the hell away from there.
There are others... I mean, ObsCure has pretty mediocre gameplay... To be fair, it doesn't extremely excel at any aspect, aside from maybe good voice acting and good soundtrack, but overall, it's a pretty okay game, but honestly, the gameplay in it can get very problematic, not the least of which is its "Co-op" gameplay, where if you're standing here, and the second player wanders off, they won't be seen on the screen, which will leave your friend saying, "s**t, where's my guy? Oh crap, someone's attacking him!" And then he'll click Circle to take over the camera and switch it to his character and then you can't see YOUR character. But in spite of that, it's still a very enjoyable game to play with a friend.

Chase Me To The End

4. Why would I want to get with the times when today's rock and roll sucks? I'd rather not take my time searching for the gems when it's so much easier to turn a corner in the 60s, 70s, and 80s and find those era's gems all right there.

Dude... Here's the thing... Gems are timeless. That's why you know them. Pink Floyd is an old band, the Rolling Stones are an old band, but you know them. Why? Because that's how great they were. If you lived back then, I guarantee you, there'd be plenty of shitty artists trying to make it.
But you're starting to sound like you're not even looking to find a new sound. The gems of today sound very different from those of the 60's and 70's. And they're WORTH finding, and there will be new ones. Pink Floyd isn't gonna release a new album...
And those bands that DO... Judas Priest for example... The album they released in 2008, Nostradamus, most of their fans say this is one of the best albums that Judas Priest has ever released.
And hell, look at Dream Theater, yes they've been around since 1985, but you yourself said that Train of Thought is your favorite album by them, followed by Systematic Chaos. That's 2003 and 2007 right there. And no, they clearly don't have an "Old School" sound to them.

Chase Me To The End

5. Bio, that makes absolutely no sense.

I can easily say about Uncharted 2 "Oh, this is just like what I used to play in 2007, only upgraded graphics".

What makes it so different is the exact reason that makes Uncharted 2 so different from Uncharted 1...Which is not a whole lot, yet I have to pay 60 bucks for Uncharted 2 anyways, don't I?

Well, I don't know why you do. I paid $60 for Uncharted 2 because it's got a new storyline, new setting, new characters, new dialogue, it moves the saga forward, and I wanted to know what happens to the characters. I sure as hell didn't pay $60 to play it online.

Oh, and no, it's not just like what you played in 2007, because I don't seem to recall Uncharted 1 pitting you against helicopters, in falling buildings, or having you fight guys on a moving train.

Chase Me To The End

Both U2 and NSMBW have excellent and expensive production values: Check.

Really? Expensive? I mean, I'm not saying its badly built. But neither are games like Braid, and Braid is an indie game that's downloadable for a cheap price.

Chase Me To The End

Both U2 and NSMBW feature new story, level, etc. content: Check
...And the list goes on and on with similarities.

I mean, how the hell does it make sense that just because a game is a so called "throwback" that it should be worth only 15 bucks, when technically every similar sequel is a "throwback". Time range matters not.

Really? How engaging is this story?
And from what I've seen, the level design, though obviously rebuilt in 3D looks the same as the originals.

But okay, if you think that NSMBW is worh its price, then why wouldn't games like Bomberman, or Worms on PS3 be worth that? Why are they simply $10 downloadables? Or hell, what about games like Trine? Trine is a platformer side scroller... Not a remake, a completely original production, with great graphics, fun gameplay and even an interesting storyline. So why is that worth $15, while NSMB is worth $50. $50 ******** dollars! And Nintendo thinks that anything Mario related is so great that the "Player's Choice" doesn't even apply to it. So you can't even say, "Well, when this Mario game sells a shitload of copies, and Nintendo releases it at $25 less, I'll get it then." Because it will forever be worth $50. That's ridiculous.

Chase Me To The End

6. Yeah, Bio, think how much frikkin' time and effort went into making NSMBW.

Frankly, it looks to me like they took the DS version, slightly upgraded it and added multiplayer. Doesn't seem like a lot.

Chase Me To The End

7. Yeah, but Banjo-Kazooie didn't revolutionize shi*. And the point I was making is people prefer the revolutionaries over all else.

Well, people are idiots. And the point I was making is that Mario 64 is not the best platformer of its generation. Maybe Mario Galaxy is the best purely platformer of this generation. But if it is, and if it remains so, then I'd be willing to say that Mario Galaxy is the first time Mario has been the best platformer of its generation since SMB3 for SNES.  

[King of Paradise]

Biohazard EXTREME

Chase Me To The End

2. Everything is a production quality in a movie...Even the story, and how it's told. But the action is directly related to the story. I can't say the same thing about how the movie is edited or how it is shot, composed, or whatever else may have you...Unless, of course, the music playing is actually playing in the movie, or if the camera is doing a p.o.v. shot, but that's barely contingent to the story compared to the action anyways.

Yeah, but if you wanna take it to THAT level, then I could even say that the story in a video game is directly related to its gameplay. I mean, Metal Gear Solid is about nuclear threats, espionage, soldiers, etc. Why? Because Kojima wanted to make an action game where the idea was to NOT encounter enemies. In other words, his idea for this interesting method of gameplay spawned an amazing storyline that gives the gameplay context.
Why is Nathan Drake climbing blocks of geometry? Because those blocks are mountains, and he's trying to get to some ruins that might have treasure hidden there.
Actually Resident Evil 4 is an excellent example of this. I hate Resident Evil 4 for a number of reasons, but one of the reasons other people don't like it (including myself) is that there are no zombies.
By itself, the Las Plagas storyline COULD work, if it was its own franchise. But in the context of Resident Evil it's like... At that point, when people bought a Resident Evil game what came to their mind? "I wanna shoot some zombies, just like the ones in Romero movies!" And it's that storyline that gives the gameplay context.
And in the case of RE4, the storyline said, "No, these aren't zombies," so you can't even say, "I'm gonna play RE4 to shoot some zombies" because you're not gonna find them.
Another example is the recently common moral choices in games. I mean, you're playing through a game... Let's say a game like Fallout 3 or Mass Effect... What do you do? You select what your character says. And it affects how other characters interact with your character, and how they'll fell about your character later on, and even how OTHER characters will perceive you. That's a gameplay element, but it's directly tied into the storyline. So without a storyline, both Mass Effect and Fallout 3 would suck. Today, story is an important element in gaming.

Chase Me To The End

3. Can't say much for most of those, but I thought the original Silent Hill was well recieved overall...Even it's gameplay. I mean, from what little I played the gameplay didn't seem that bad to have all the other elements pick up the game...

Yes, it was well received. I'm telling you from my own personal opinion, the running is clumsy, it takes like 6 feet of slowdown for the character to actually stop. The weapon system can be buggy, in that, sometimes you won't be aiming at the enemy you want. I mean, they're relatively small issues, but they can make the game very frustrating at times.
And a few of the latter Silent Hill games experience some of these issues as well. For example, in Silent Hill 3, you don't NEED to press the "Aim" button to attack an enemy if the enemy is close to you, you just push the action button. So, if you're near a door, and the enemy is close to you, every once in a while, the character will attempt to attack rather than open the door to get the hell away from there.
There are others... I mean, ObsCure has pretty mediocre gameplay... To be fair, it doesn't extremely excel at any aspect, aside from maybe good voice acting and good soundtrack, but overall, it's a pretty okay game, but honestly, the gameplay in it can get very problematic, not the least of which is its "Co-op" gameplay, where if you're standing here, and the second player wanders off, they won't be seen on the screen, which will leave your friend saying, "s**t, where's my guy? Oh crap, someone's attacking him!" And then he'll click Circle to take over the camera and switch it to his character and then you can't see YOUR character. But in spite of that, it's still a very enjoyable game to play with a friend.

Chase Me To The End

4. Why would I want to get with the times when today's rock and roll sucks? I'd rather not take my time searching for the gems when it's so much easier to turn a corner in the 60s, 70s, and 80s and find those era's gems all right there.

Dude... Here's the thing... Gems are timeless. That's why you know them. Pink Floyd is an old band, the Rolling Stones are an old band, but you know them. Why? Because that's how great they were. If you lived back then, I guarantee you, there'd be plenty of shitty artists trying to make it.
But you're starting to sound like you're not even looking to find a new sound. The gems of today sound very different from those of the 60's and 70's. And they're WORTH finding, and there will be new ones. Pink Floyd isn't gonna release a new album...
And those bands that DO... Judas Priest for example... The album they released in 2008, Nostradamus, most of their fans say this is one of the best albums that Judas Priest has ever released.
And hell, look at Dream Theater, yes they've been around since 1985, but you yourself said that Train of Thought is your favorite album by them, followed by Systematic Chaos. That's 2003 and 2007 right there. And no, they clearly don't have an "Old School" sound to them.

Chase Me To The End

5. Bio, that makes absolutely no sense.

I can easily say about Uncharted 2 "Oh, this is just like what I used to play in 2007, only upgraded graphics".

What makes it so different is the exact reason that makes Uncharted 2 so different from Uncharted 1...Which is not a whole lot, yet I have to pay 60 bucks for Uncharted 2 anyways, don't I?

Well, I don't know why you do. I paid $60 for Uncharted 2 because it's got a new storyline, new setting, new characters, new dialogue, it moves the saga forward, and I wanted to know what happens to the characters. I sure as hell didn't pay $60 to play it online.

Oh, and no, it's not just like what you played in 2007, because I don't seem to recall Uncharted 1 pitting you against helicopters, in falling buildings, or having you fight guys on a moving train.

Chase Me To The End

Both U2 and NSMBW have excellent and expensive production values: Check.

Really? Expensive? I mean, I'm not saying its badly built. But neither are games like Braid, and Braid is an indie game that's downloadable for a cheap price.

Chase Me To The End

Both U2 and NSMBW feature new story, level, etc. content: Check
...And the list goes on and on with similarities.

I mean, how the hell does it make sense that just because a game is a so called "throwback" that it should be worth only 15 bucks, when technically every similar sequel is a "throwback". Time range matters not.

Really? How engaging is this story?
And from what I've seen, the level design, though obviously rebuilt in 3D looks the same as the originals.

But okay, if you think that NSMBW is worh its price, then why wouldn't games like Bomberman, or Worms on PS3 be worth that? Why are they simply $10 downloadables? Or hell, what about games like Trine? Trine is a platformer side scroller... Not a remake, a completely original production, with great graphics, fun gameplay and even an interesting storyline. So why is that worth $15, while NSMB is worth $50. $50 ******** dollars! And Nintendo thinks that anything Mario related is so great that the "Player's Choice" doesn't even apply to it. So you can't even say, "Well, when this Mario game sells a shitload of copies, and Nintendo releases it at $25 less, I'll get it then." Because it will forever be worth $50. That's ridiculous.

Chase Me To The End

6. Yeah, Bio, think how much frikkin' time and effort went into making NSMBW.

Frankly, it looks to me like they took the DS version, slightly upgraded it and added multiplayer. Doesn't seem like a lot.

Chase Me To The End

7. Yeah, but Banjo-Kazooie didn't revolutionize shi*. And the point I was making is people prefer the revolutionaries over all else.

Well, people are idiots. And the point I was making is that Mario 64 is not the best platformer of its generation. Maybe Mario Galaxy is the best purely platformer of this generation. But if it is, and if it remains so, then I'd be willing to say that Mario Galaxy is the first time Mario has been the best platformer of its generation since SMB3 for SNES.

1. Wait, what are you trying to argue in the first place? That w/o the story, there wouldn't be the gameplay? Or what?

2. See, I didn't find any problems with ObsCure's gameplay either...I guess, just my luck?

3. Alright, the 90s had time to come up with bands that are gems now. Name me three (And they have to be bands that released their debut albums in the 90s, not formed in).

4. Yeah, I payed 50 bucks for NSMBWii because it's got a new storyline (Shallow as it may be), new levels (If Uncharted has been around since and has released as many games as Mario, then even it would have to rehash it's setting...Does that mean I should stop buying the games because it does that?), new characters (Blue and Yellow Toad FTW), new dialogue (technically speaking)...And to add to that, it also had new challenges, new features (Including a spiffy multiplayer mode), new enemies, new powerups, replay value, just a whole plethora of new s**t that made it absolutely reasonably priced at 50...Just like Uncharted 2.

Oh, and no, it's not like what I played in in the 80s and 90s, because I don't seem to recall Super Mario Bros. or Super Mario World pitting you against a giant Bowser, in a crumbling castle, or having me fight guys on a moving...raft lmao.

The point is, New Super Mario Bros. Wii is it's own beast, and not just some damn rehash.

5. What point are youy trying to make with Braid?

6. Like I said earlier, if Uncharted had been around as long as Mario, it's level design and locations/settings would get repetitive too......So don't give NSMBWii flack for that crap.

Because NSMBWii is obviously a bigger game than those downloadable games production wise, scale wise, longevity wise...

7. The game had entirely new levels and novel concepts and challenges added to it, so...Yeah, time and effort.

8.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Chase Me To The End

1. Wait, what are you trying to argue in the first place? That w/o the story, there wouldn't be the gameplay? Or what?

Well, there wouldn't be graphics... In a way, making any kinds of graphics at all... Specifically locations and characters, creates a story in itself. Imagine playing SMB with nothing but colored blocks, you're red, you stomp on blue, and you bump green blocks for points. That's it. I'm sorry, but if you tell me that it would still be an enjoyable experience for you, I can't say I'll believe you.

Chase Me To The End

2. See, I didn't find any problems with ObsCure's gameplay either...I guess, just my luck?

So, playing Co-op, and having your character getting raped off screen is not a problem?
Besides, that's my point, sometimes the gameplay might be lacking, but with a good enough story, atmosphere, art direction, sound, voice acting, etc. you won't even notice, because your overall experience is greatly enhanced.
I really urge you to play Rule of Rose if you find any kind of means to do it.

Chase Me To The End

3. Alright, the 90s had time to come up with bands that are gems now. Name me three (And they have to be bands that released their debut albums in the 90s, not formed in).

Unexpect - One of the craziest bands I've ever heard. Might not be quite for you, but I love them.
Plus two that I've already listed, Within Temptation and Nightwish. Both amazing bands.
And Epica was formed in 2003, so they're even more recent, and still are amazing.
Adema was formed in 2000 and is an awesome band. Some of the best Alternative Metal I've ever heard.
I actually recently started digging around some more underground gems, and I found two bands that are awesome. One is Supreme Majesty formed in 1999, Progressive Power Metal and actually they do have a slight bit of an 80's vibe to them.
The other one is Empty Tremor, which formed in 1993. They're progressive metal, with a vibe of alternative. Again, one of the best, and most interesting bands I've heard in a while.

Chase Me To The End

4. Yeah, I payed 50 bucks for NSMBWii because it's got a new storyline (Shallow as it may be), new levels (If Uncharted has been around since and has released as many games as Mario, then even it would have to rehash it's setting...Does that mean I should stop buying the games because it does that?), new characters (Blue and Yellow Toad FTW), new dialogue (technically speaking)...And to add to that, it also had new challenges, new features (Including a spiffy multiplayer mode), new enemies, new powerups, replay value, just a whole plethora of new s**t that made it absolutely reasonably priced at 50...Just like Uncharted 2.

Dude, I can believe that Mario Galaxy has a lot to offer, and I'm not saying it's not worth $50. But there's no way you're ever gonna sell me the idea that NSMBW is worth $50. In my opinion, they're ripping people off.

And that still doesn't answer my question. Why aren't other games that offer just as much priced that high? Why must great independent developers settle for selling their product dirt cheap on the network?

Chase Me To The End

The point is, New Super Mario Bros. Wii is it's own beast, and not just some damn rehash.

I'm not saying it's a rehash per se, I'm just saying that it looks like a lower budget title.

Chase Me To The End

5. What point are youy trying to make with Braid?

I'm trying to say that (especially NOW) it doesn't take a ridiculously high budget or a crapload of time to make a really good 2D platformer. And I honestly don't believe Nintendo spent too much money developing NSMBW either.

Chase Me To The End

6. Like I said earlier, if Uncharted had been around as long as Mario, it's level design and locations/settings would get repetitive too......So don't give NSMBWii flack for that crap.

Well, if Uncharted had been established in 1985 (even though Mario's been around even longer than that) I think Naughty Dog would've had the sense to know when to end the franchise before it did become repetitive.
And besides, that statement you just made... Even you admit that Mario is repetitive.

Chase Me To The End

Because NSMBWii is obviously a bigger game than those downloadable games production wise, scale wise, longevity wise...

Okay tell me... This new Mario game... How many different types of worlds does it have? I mean, Land, Cave, Underwater, Dark Bowser Castle... What other new and exciting types of worlds does it offer? Maybe I'm wrong. If there's like 20 different types of chipsets, and 3+ levels of each of them, then maybe there is something more to it.

Chase Me To The End

8.

Your 8 is blank.  

[King of Paradise]

Biohazard EXTREME

Chase Me To The End

1. Wait, what are you trying to argue in the first place? That w/o the story, there wouldn't be the gameplay? Or what?

Well, there wouldn't be graphics... In a way, making any kinds of graphics at all... Specifically locations and characters, creates a story in itself. Imagine playing SMB with nothing but colored blocks, you're red, you stomp on blue, and you bump green blocks for points. That's it. I'm sorry, but if you tell me that it would still be an enjoyable experience for you, I can't say I'll believe you.

Chase Me To The End

2. See, I didn't find any problems with ObsCure's gameplay either...I guess, just my luck?

So, playing Co-op, and having your character getting raped off screen is not a problem?
Besides, that's my point, sometimes the gameplay might be lacking, but with a good enough story, atmosphere, art direction, sound, voice acting, etc. you won't even notice, because your overall experience is greatly enhanced.
I really urge you to play Rule of Rose if you find any kind of means to do it.

Chase Me To The End

3. Alright, the 90s had time to come up with bands that are gems now. Name me three (And they have to be bands that released their debut albums in the 90s, not formed in).

Unexpect - One of the craziest bands I've ever heard. Might not be quite for you, but I love them.
Plus two that I've already listed, Within Temptation and Nightwish. Both amazing bands.
And Epica was formed in 2003, so they're even more recent, and still are amazing.
Adema was formed in 2000 and is an awesome band. Some of the best Alternative Metal I've ever heard.
I actually recently started digging around some more underground gems, and I found two bands that are awesome. One is Supreme Majesty formed in 1999, Progressive Power Metal and actually they do have a slight bit of an 80's vibe to them.
The other one is Empty Tremor, which formed in 1993. They're progressive metal, with a vibe of alternative. Again, one of the best, and most interesting bands I've heard in a while.

Chase Me To The End

4. Yeah, I payed 50 bucks for NSMBWii because it's got a new storyline (Shallow as it may be), new levels (If Uncharted has been around since and has released as many games as Mario, then even it would have to rehash it's setting...Does that mean I should stop buying the games because it does that?), new characters (Blue and Yellow Toad FTW), new dialogue (technically speaking)...And to add to that, it also had new challenges, new features (Including a spiffy multiplayer mode), new enemies, new powerups, replay value, just a whole plethora of new s**t that made it absolutely reasonably priced at 50...Just like Uncharted 2.

Dude, I can believe that Mario Galaxy has a lot to offer, and I'm not saying it's not worth $50. But there's no way you're ever gonna sell me the idea that NSMBW is worth $50. In my opinion, they're ripping people off.

And that still doesn't answer my question. Why aren't other games that offer just as much priced that high? Why must great independent developers settle for selling their product dirt cheap on the network?

Chase Me To The End

The point is, New Super Mario Bros. Wii is it's own beast, and not just some damn rehash.

I'm not saying it's a rehash per se, I'm just saying that it looks like a lower budget title.

Chase Me To The End

5. What point are youy trying to make with Braid?

I'm trying to say that (especially NOW) it doesn't take a ridiculously high budget or a crapload of time to make a really good 2D platformer. And I honestly don't believe Nintendo spent too much money developing NSMBW either.

Chase Me To The End

6. Like I said earlier, if Uncharted had been around as long as Mario, it's level design and locations/settings would get repetitive too......So don't give NSMBWii flack for that crap.

Well, if Uncharted had been established in 1985 (even though Mario's been around even longer than that) I think Naughty Dog would've had the sense to know when to end the franchise before it did become repetitive.
And besides, that statement you just made... Even you admit that Mario is repetitive.

Chase Me To The End

Because NSMBWii is obviously a bigger game than those downloadable games production wise, scale wise, longevity wise...

Okay tell me... This new Mario game... How many different types of worlds does it have? I mean, Land, Cave, Underwater, Dark Bowser Castle... What other new and exciting types of worlds does it offer? Maybe I'm wrong. If there's like 20 different types of chipsets, and 3+ levels of each of them, then maybe there is something more to it.

Chase Me To The End

8.

Your 8 is blank.

1. Let me just settle on this. In a game, the story can be important. The graphics can be important. But the only thing that IS important is gameplay. It's what defines a game. That is all.

And yeah, I believe I said in an earlier debate that if Streets of Rage was composed of stick people with the same gameplay, that I'd still enjoy it. Maybe not as much as before, but more importantly is that I could live w/o the music and graphics, as long as the gameplay remained intact. I can't say the same thing about the music or graphics if there wasn't any gameplay to go along.

2. ? ...My friend never went off screen and got raped. We never had an issue like that. We stuck together close than butt buddies.

3. I promise you I will give those bands a look see. But naming those bands just reinforced my earlier statement: seeing as how I am a major rock enthusiast and have never heard of them, not on radio or anything (And boy do I listen to all the rock stations Chicago has to offer), they're obviously not the blatant gems that littered the 60s, 70s, and 80s around every corner, such as Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd.

4. I answered your question with the statment "Because NSMBWii is obviously a bigger game than those downloadable games production wise, scale wise, longevity wise..."

5. Looks like a lower budget title? Huhwhat? It's a main series iteration. There's no effing way that baby was cheap to make.

6. I said it's level design and locales are repetitive, not it's fun gameplay and challenges. And having repetitive designs and locales are fully understandable at this point in the series; There's nothing wrong with that as long as the fun gameplay and challenges keep on coming...I would say the same thing for Uncharted.

7. My 8 is blank indeed...Indeedy deedy.

8.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Chase Me To The End

1. Let me just settle on this. In a game, the story can be important. The graphics can be important. But the only thing that IS important is gameplay. It's what defines a game. That is all.

Again, that's arguable.
Now, every game has gameplay, and all gameplay is essential, yes. But look at Metal Gear Solid. Story defines that game. As awesome as the gameplay may be, if someone said, "What's so special about MGS?" I dunno about you, but I would say, "It's got such amazing storylines to it, and so many plot twists, and the characters are so well written and acted out it's unbelievable. Oh, also it's a stealth game, and the idea is to avoid enemies rather than confront them head on."

Chase Me To The End

And yeah, I believe I said in an earlier debate that if Streets of Rage was composed of stick people with the same gameplay, that I'd still enjoy it. Maybe not as much as before, but more importantly is that I could live w/o the music and graphics, as long as the gameplay remained intact. I can't say the same thing about the music or graphics if there wasn't any gameplay to go along.

Yeah, I guess there was that conversation. Still, the reason I like Streets of Rage, is because I'm playing as a badass character beating up punk a** thugs.

Chase Me To The End

2. ? ...My friend never went off screen and got raped. We never had an issue like that. We stuck together close than butt buddies.

Can't rape the willing in that case. Still, the fact is, it gives you the option to go off screen and then you could be ********, cause you could get attacked, or even lose your sense of place and not know how to get back without switching the camera. It is a design flaw.

Chase Me To The End

3. I promise you I will give those bands a look see. But naming those bands just reinforced my earlier statement: seeing as how I am a major rock enthusiast and have never heard of them, not on radio or anything (And boy do I listen to all the rock stations Chicago has to offer), they're obviously not the blatant gems that littered the 60s, 70s, and 80s around every corner, such as Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd.

No, here's the difference. In the 60's, 70's and 80's, gems actually got the attention and the credit they deserve. Now, yes, you have to pretty much go underground to find new gems (like the 7 dwarves do!), but those gems are very very much worth finding. I'm not saying change your music collection, I'm saying EXPAND it.

Chase Me To The End

4. I answered your question with the statment "Because NSMBWii is obviously a bigger game than those downloadable games production wise, scale wise, longevity wise..."

Yeah, AFTER.

Chase Me To The End

5. Looks like a lower budget title? Huhwhat? It's a main series iteration. There's no effing way that baby was cheap to make.

Well, it looks that way. I'm sorry, but it does. It looks like it belongs on the Wii Ware, rather than a disc release.

Chase Me To The End

6. I said it's level design and locales are repetitive, not it's fun gameplay and challenges. And having repetitive designs and locales are fully understandable at this point in the series; There's nothing wrong with that as long as the fun gameplay and challenges keep on coming...I would say the same thing for Uncharted.

And still, even IF Uncharted 2 went back to the jungle and naxi bunkers for the entire game, there's still a deep and involving storyline that drives it along. And yes, it moved me.

Chase Me To The End

7. My 8 is blank indeed...Indeedy deedy.

8.

You watch yourself or I'm gonna  

[King of Paradise]

Biohazard EXTREME

Chase Me To The End

1. Let me just settle on this. In a game, the story can be important. The graphics can be important. But the only thing that IS important is gameplay. It's what defines a game. That is all.

Again, that's arguable.
Now, every game has gameplay, and all gameplay is essential, yes. But look at Metal Gear Solid. Story defines that game. As awesome as the gameplay may be, if someone said, "What's so special about MGS?" I dunno about you, but I would say, "It's got such amazing storylines to it, and so many plot twists, and the characters are so well written and acted out it's unbelievable. Oh, also it's a stealth game, and the idea is to avoid enemies rather than confront them head on."

Chase Me To The End

And yeah, I believe I said in an earlier debate that if Streets of Rage was composed of stick people with the same gameplay, that I'd still enjoy it. Maybe not as much as before, but more importantly is that I could live w/o the music and graphics, as long as the gameplay remained intact. I can't say the same thing about the music or graphics if there wasn't any gameplay to go along.

Yeah, I guess there was that conversation. Still, the reason I like Streets of Rage, is because I'm playing as a badass character beating up punk a** thugs.

Chase Me To The End

2. ? ...My friend never went off screen and got raped. We never had an issue like that. We stuck together close than butt buddies.

Can't rape the willing in that case. Still, the fact is, it gives you the option to go off screen and then you could be ********, cause you could get attacked, or even lose your sense of place and not know how to get back without switching the camera. It is a design flaw.

Chase Me To The End

3. I promise you I will give those bands a look see. But naming those bands just reinforced my earlier statement: seeing as how I am a major rock enthusiast and have never heard of them, not on radio or anything (And boy do I listen to all the rock stations Chicago has to offer), they're obviously not the blatant gems that littered the 60s, 70s, and 80s around every corner, such as Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd.

No, here's the difference. In the 60's, 70's and 80's, gems actually got the attention and the credit they deserve. Now, yes, you have to pretty much go underground to find new gems (like the 7 dwarves do!), but those gems are very very much worth finding. I'm not saying change your music collection, I'm saying EXPAND it.

Chase Me To The End

4. I answered your question with the statment "Because NSMBWii is obviously a bigger game than those downloadable games production wise, scale wise, longevity wise..."

Yeah, AFTER.

Chase Me To The End

5. Looks like a lower budget title? Huhwhat? It's a main series iteration. There's no effing way that baby was cheap to make.

Well, it looks that way. I'm sorry, but it does. It looks like it belongs on the Wii Ware, rather than a disc release.

Chase Me To The End

6. I said it's level design and locales are repetitive, not it's fun gameplay and challenges. And having repetitive designs and locales are fully understandable at this point in the series; There's nothing wrong with that as long as the fun gameplay and challenges keep on coming...I would say the same thing for Uncharted.

And still, even IF Uncharted 2 went back to the jungle and naxi bunkers for the entire game, there's still a deep and involving storyline that drives it along. And yes, it moved me.

Chase Me To The End

7. My 8 is blank indeed...Indeedy deedy.

8.

You watch yourself or I'm gonna

1. I settled. That means I'm too lazy to unsettle myself to argue with your arguable point.

2. But, I want to expand it w/o doing the digging (Pun intended...In case you don't get it, digging gems). I'm lazy, dammit...I never had to search before with those three decades I love me so highly like...I dunno, maybe I'll use Pandora Radio more to find the gems for me...It's how I found all the electronica artists I love me so highly like.

...

8.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Chase Me To The End

1. I settled. That means I'm too lazy to unsettle myself to argue with your arguable point.

2. But, I want to expand it w/o doing the digging (Pun intended...In case you don't get it, digging gems). I'm lazy, dammit...I never had to search before with those three decades I love me so highly like...I dunno, maybe I'll use Pandora Radio more to find the gems for me...It's how I found all the electronica artists I love me so highly like.

...

8.

Well, stop being so lazy. Go to www.nightmare-records.com it's a label/distributor for independent Metal bands. Most of them are really good, but the best thing about the website is that most of their products have "Preview" buttons next to songs, so you can browse bands, and know exactly what they sound like easily.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Thee Stranger

So what? The PS3, with all it's M rated games, is still the least successful console of this generation. And yeah, it seems like they tried to play Sony at their own game on a lot of fronts with the Gamecube and lost. So they had to reinvent themselves. And so now we have the Wii.

But it's still successful. And it's still the best console for me, which, opinion as it may be, might as well say, "Which is still the best console of this generation." Because that's what I think.

Thee Stranger

*sigh* there's plenty of Wii games with storylines. No, they're not usually big budget action fests like Uncharted or something, but that's never been what the Wii has been about. And Fatal Frame 4... the only people who did that were the big fans of that series. I myself have never played a Fatal Frame game. By the sounds of it, I think the Wii controls would be very ideal for it, so I would've liked to have seen it over here, but I'm not going through the trouble. The devoted fans of the series are probably the only ones who give a s**t enough to.

Well, even if I did own the Wii, and Fatal Frame did come here, I probably wouldn't bother with it. Because Fatal Frame on the PS2, and pretty much couldn't really get into it. So it's a lost cause for me. Same with Dead Space, I know you disagree, but I pretty much hated Dead Space, so why would I bother with an on-rails shooter spinoff on the Wii? But okay, I'd like to hear about some of these Wii titles that have great storylines.

Thee Stranger

Oh Christ. Here we go again. First of all, a game doesn't need high budget voice acting in order to have an intriguing storyline.

Fine, let's just say, great voice talent.

Wii Sports (E) - Not interested
Wii Sports Resort (E) - Not interested
Wii Play (E) - Not interested
Wii Fit Plus (E) - Not interested
Super Mario Galaxy (E) - I'd give it a chance based on your comments, but probably wouldn't buy it
Super Mario Galaxy 2 (E) - Same as SMG1
New Super Mario Bros. Wii (E) - Not interested
Mario Kart Wii (E) - Not interested
WarioWare: Smooth Moves (E 10+) - Kinda fun, if friends are over
Super Smash Bros Brawl (T) ** - Not interested
Punch Out!! (T) * - Not interested
Metroid Prime Trillogy (T) ** - Not interested
Link's Crossbow Training (T) - I don't even consider it a real game, but okay.
Nights: Journey into Dreams (E) ** - Not interested
Zak & Wiki: Quest for Barbaros' Treasure (E) * - Might be cool, I think
Sam & Max: Season One (T) ** - Not interested
Mushroom Men: The Spore Wars (E 10+) * - One of the only Wii games that I actually thought seemed really cool. You have no idea how hard it is to sell though.
De Blob (E) * - Not interested
Metal Slug Anthology (T) * - Not interested
Medal of Honor Heroes 2 (T) ** - Not interested
Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles (M) ** - Piece of crap
Resident Evil 4: Wii Edition (M) ** - Piece of crap
Muramasa: The Demon Blade (T) * - Not interested
Okami (T) * - Not interested, but if I was, I'd get it for PS2
The Conduit (T) ** - Not interested
Red Steel (T) ** - Not interested
Red Steel 2 (T) ** - Not interested
No More Heroes (M) ** - Seems really awesome, but is also coming for PS3
No More Heroes 2 (M) ** - Sequel to seems really awesome
MadWorld (M) ** - I'd check it out
Deadly Creatures (T) ** - I'd give it a try
Cursed Mountain (M) ** - Never heard of it
Obscure: The Aftermath (M) ** - Pretty fun, but again, I can get it for PS2, and still, I don't think it was good enough to actually go out and buy it
The House of the Dead 2 & 3 Return (M) ** - I'd probably buy it
The House of the Dead: Overkill (M)** - I'd probably buy it.

Thee Stranger

That's 35 games right there in my personal Wii collection. Out of those 35 games, 13 are E-rated, 13 are T-rated, and 9 are M-rated. I'd say that's fairly diverse in terms of rating, among a good handful of games for a console. And out of those 35 games, 25 of them have a storyline to follow. And out of those 25 that feature a storyline, 18 of them feature a healthy amount of voice acting.

But see, out of all those, there's only about 9 at most that I'd actually buy.

Thee Stranger

Games such as Deadly Creatures, a Wii exclusive, features voice-over work from Billy Bob Thorton and the late Dennis Hopper.

Yeah, that one seemed pretty cool.

Thee Stranger

Sam & Max is a hilarious oldschool point-and-click adventure game, chock-full of witty dialogue and voice work throughout.

If I remember correctly, Sam & Max used to be a cartoon TV Series... Unfortunately I never really watched it, so I wouldn't really buy it. Same with the PSN releases of Sam & Max.

Thee Stranger

Zak & Wiki, another Wii exclusive, is another great point & click adventure game that made great use of the Wii controls, had a pretty decent story to follow, and is kid-friendly.

Kid friendly how, though? Kid friendly like Jak & Daxter? Or kid friendly like Spongebob?

Thee Stranger

De Blob is a good platformer with a pretty cool storyline as well.

I've seen De Blob, and honestly, I probably wouldn't bother.

Thee Stranger

And only 7 of these story-driven Wii games I own tell it primarily through text or other means as opposed to voice acting.

See, here's the thing, if I WAS going to buy a game with no voice acting, where the storyline was conveyed entirely through text, it better be because they had no memory for the voice acting. In other words, it better be HUGE. Like, on the scope of FF7, or another big JRPG.

Thee Stranger

How many of them are great? Well, our ideas of great are very different, obviously. No, not all of them are great by any means. A good few of them are, though. And where I come from, a good game is a good game.

Well, I'm picky. Sheer mechanics don't make a good game for me. Even if there isn't much of a storyline, but the gameplay is great, it has to offer SOMETHING else. Like, let's say, great art direction, or impressive graphical effects.
And a lot of that is missing on the Wii as well.
And yes, don't give me that crap about how, PS3 people have been spoiled with the graphics and can't appreciate the Wii. I still think PSP games can look awesome, even though they aren't quite as good as even the PS2 games, so yes, the PS2 games as well, and hell, I can find great graphical effects in every generation of gaming. So no, it's not about just the PS360. And yes, Mario Galaxy has great aesthetic appeal. But games like De Blob, for example, looks like an ugly mess.

Thee Stranger

Not everything has to be a Triple A hype-fest with a huge budget for me to buy it or enjoy it.

Hey, to be fair, half of the games I own are NOT AAA hype fests. That doesn't mean that the developers didn't take their time to implement decent storylines with voice overs into them.

Thee Stranger

And feel free to read up on the reviews of these titles, and see for yourself how crap the rest of the world thinks they are. I think the most universally panned game I have is the original Red Steel, which is the Lair of the Wii.

Well, even though yes, Lair got worse reviews than it deserved, and I don't think it was all that bad, it's still not a part of my collection. I mean, just because a game is underrated, doesn't mean it's good, it just means it's not as bad as people say it is.

Thee Stranger

And that's not even getting into the great WiiWare games they have, like Contra Rebirth, Castlevania Rebirth, Max & the Magic Marker, Cave Story, World of Goo, etc. THEN you got all the Virtual Console stuff on top of that, with all the imports. Stuff like the original Turbografx Dracula X (aka: the reason I bought my PSP).

Well, look at the PSN. I mean, it's got some incredibly acclaimed, original casual stuff, like Everydayshooter, or Fat Princess, or the PixelJunk series. But I've seen those games in action, and I still don't think they're worth my money and the hard drive space in the long run.

Thee Stranger

And Wii Sports Resort is a great party game. Pretty much all of the Nintendo first party mini game stuff is. I can't speak on the rest, because I roll with the best. Wii is the established party system.

Here's the thing. I don't have anything against party games... But at the same time, I think one or two is all that a person would need. Like, if I had the Wii, and I bought, let's say Wario Ware and Mario Party 8 (or 9 if it's out). I'd be set for party games. That's all I'd need. And yes, those would be the two party games that I'd get. And I wouldn't bother getting anymore, because you might roll with the best. But I pick the best of the best, haha.

Thee Stranger

And there are also a lot of gems on there for my "core" gaming. And there's still quite a few games out there I still want for the Wii. Fragile Dreams, the new Silent Hill, and Dead Space to name a few. And there's a lot more stuff coming. And is there a lot of crap on the Wii? Yeah. But I don't buy it. Hope this has cleared it all up for you.

Well, I gotta say, I lucked out on Silent Hill, because it is available for PS2 and PSP, and I own both of those versions. And sure, they don't have as great of graphics, and no intuitive motion controls, but hey, they tell the exact same story, with the exact same, great voice overs. And that's what the important part is. And yes, if Silent Hill was a Wii exclusive, chances are, I'd be saving up my money to eventually buy another Wii. But like I said, I lucked out.

Thee Stranger

How does Mario Kart differ from Gran Turismo? A lot. Yes, Grand Turismo is a great racing game. It always has stellar graphics, a lot of intricate customization and content, and is any gear head's wet dream. That said, it doesn't appeal to me much. There's different tracks, yeah. Basically, there's different shapes to the tracks. Whereas with Mario Kart, it's different shapes and themes, and obsticles and other things. And on an "acrady" level? Hey, tell EA to bring out a new Road Rash and I'll buy it right up. And I'll buy it because it's called Road Rash, and I'll know what to expect.

Really? You will? Cause Road Rash 64 sucked balls. It was nothing like the previous Road Rash games, apart from actually having motorcycles in it. And that was the last we've heard of Road Rash, I believe.

Thee Stranger

Oh no, Bio? I think you'd buy just about anything with MGS attached to it. You can go ahead and throw Rising at me, but I bet you'd be real excited for it if SNAKE was in it, wouldn't you. Even if you had no idea what the storyline was going to be yet. Because you'll know what to expect from MGS. And you'll expect to like it, based on its track record.

Well, if that's true, then why ARE you eluding Rising? I'm not iffy about it because of Raiden. I'm iffy about it because of those humanoid cyborg enemies. To be completely honest, they look ridiculous. The technology that makes the game looks awesome. But the concept for those types of enemies within the MGS universe seems ridiculous even compared to the Geckos, or the little round Robots with arms, or the White Blood in Raiden. Like, those things in MGS4 are pretty much on the point of, "Tolerate for the sake of everything else that's so awesome about this game."
But with Raiden being the protagonist, those kinds of cyborgs being the enemies... I'm not passing my judgement on the game just yet, but from what it looks like to me, it could very well be the RE4 of Metal Gear Solid.
Also, take Peace Walker for example. That very first trailer we saw with 4 "Snakes" in it. When I saw that... I mean, I know Kojima's style, and he can be cryptic with his teasers, so I knew not to pass judgement on it yet. While some game journalists said, "From looking at the trailer, it appears that Big Boss is fighting a Metal Gear type weapon alongside three of his clones." And I said, "What the ********?" 3 full grown Big Boss clones in 1974 would totally derail the Metal Gear storyline. As I suspected, that was just Kojima telling us that the new MGS would be Co-Op (which, I still think is unnecessary, but doesn't take away from single player mode either). And I kept a close eye, because I knew it couldn't be 3 clones. Luckily I was right. But if I wasn't, you think I'd get it? Hell no. After RE4 (well, UC), I learned to look at every single installment of every single series I buy objectively. And if there's one thing about it that could be a dealbreaker, ruin the overall story arc, etc. Then I keep a close eye on it until I'm proven otherwise. So no, I honestly can say I don't have MGS fanboy goggles on. Or any other fanboy goggles for that matter.

Thee Stranger

Likewise, people who like Mario games are going to buy Mario games. I like Mario games. And as you may have noticed, I don't have every single game that features Mario on the cover. I don't give a s**t about baseball. So slapping Mario on the cover of Mario Baseball isn't going to sell me the game. Because it's baseball, and for the most part, I'll know what to expect.

Okay, but let's say, you suddenly got into Baseball. Like, I dunno, your friends invite you to a baseball game, and you develop a taste for it, and become a baseball enthusiast, at least on some level, and you say, "Well, why don't I pick up a baseball video game for my Wii?"
Is it gonna be MLB? Or is it gonna be Mario?

Thee Stranger

Because Metal Gear Solid games don't sell well JUST because it says "Metal Gear Solid" on it And well, some games are universally praised, and some are underappreciated. It's just something you're gonna have to live with. But on the topic of Final Fantasy, a lot of fans hated XIII. A lot of fans panned it, and a lot of fans traded that s**t back into the store. Their "blindness" as you put it, may have sold them the game. But once they played it, and it didn't give them what they wanted or expected from it, they took it back.

Exactly! See? So, let's say Final Fantasy sells 1 million copies, and half of the people who bought it, hate it. So they go and trade it in. But statistically speaking, as far as Square is concerned, they still sold 1 million units, even though theres 500 thousand disappointed fans out there who are thinking to themselves, "I wish I didn't buy that game." Meanwhile Square can safely say, "FF13 is awesome! And we have sales that prove it!"
And yes, it is the way it is, and the way it's gonna be. And even worse, because with digital distribution, you can't even trade it back.
But that doesn't mean that I have to approve, or agree with the way it is. Like, after buying Dead Space, I honestly wish I could've brought it back to EB games, unsealed and say, "This game has severely disappointed me, and I don't want my purchase to count as a sale for this title." And it sucks that I can't.

Thee Stranger

Not everyone likes milk. But those who do are gonna drink it. And if the s**t's gone sour, they're gonna spit it back out.

Well, there are different brands of milk too. And I have my favorites, and if I find something better, I will switch. I'm not necessarily gonna drink Beatrice milk, just because Beatrice has provided me with years and years of delicious and nutritious milk.
Actually, this has happened recently, my mom has bought some really good milk, and I thought, "This milk kicks a**," and then she buys Beatrice again, and it tastes like tepid water, and I said, "This is crap, where's that other milk?" Because I found something better.

Thee Stranger

Yes, I know Mortal Kombat was an arcade game. Just Like Street Fighter II was an arcade game. And I did play those games in the arcades on occassion, but I mostly played them on my consoles. And I mostly played in the arcades to play the stuff I couldn't play on my consoles. Point is, MK and Immortal were both on Genesis. I needed a blood code for the original MK. The Immortal didn't bother with that, and just gave me the blood right off.

And if it was something that kids discussed among each other at school, and drew bloody fan art of, I'm sure it would've gotten just as much heat.
Plus, sure, MK1 needed a blood code, but ABACABB is one of the most remembered codes of the 1990's. So obviously, those kids new their s**t.

Thee Stranger

No, it wasn't obviously. Because you were ignorant to that fact that it even existed until I brought it up. Maybe if it were an arcade game, it would have gotten more attention. It still doesn't change anything. It was there. It was before Mortal Kombat.

That. Or Mortal Kombat is a fun fighting game that you could play with your friends, have tournaments, etc. etc. etc. in SPITE of being violent. Look it doesn't matter. The whole point is that if Immortal was that popular, I'm sure people would've protested it just as much.
GTA was insanely popular, and if it wasn't, it probably would never have gotten on Hillary's radar.
So why did a cult game like MadWorld get so much attention?

Thee Stranger

lol, no it's not. MK was fighting game. More specifically, a Street Fighter II clone with a blood/fatality gimmick. One of which never played anywhere near as good SFII (my opinion). I don't remember anyone blinking or disappearing in Street Fighter II when I punched them or knocked them down. When you punched someone, sometimes there was a very small amount of blood that would fly out of their mouth or something. Sometimes when you delivered a particularly hard hit to a dude's stomach, they would vomit. That's infinitely more realistic than a frikkin' pint of blood flying out the back of someone's head every time you punched them.

Look, I'm not gonna argue with you whether Street Fighter is better than MK. MK is clearly better. xd
But seriously, I'm not talking about Street Fighter, when I talk about enemies blinking to death. I'm talking about every other game, like Contra, Double Dragon, Streets of Rage, etc. And yes, those games all kicked a**. But those games are the ones I used to play, and compared to that, having Blood in Mortal Kombat is realistic.

Thee Stranger

That's not what I call realistic. I call that, "hey everybody, look at me, I'm bloody!" I call that shock factor, blood for the sake of it, and cheesy.

Well, I don't think it was cheesy back then. It was awesome. And hell, even now, I don't think God of War 3 is cheesy in spite of its gore. In fact, there were parts in God of War 3 that damn near made me queezy because of how gruesome the violence was. Now, don't get me wrong, I think it kicked a**, but it wasn't cheesy in spite of being ridiculously bloody and gory.

Thee Stranger

I don't know. Maybe it's like The Immortal, and some just slip by under the radar. But there have been protests to God of War, and it has been banned in certain countires. They don't discriminate.

Yes, I hear about all kinds of bans. I just figured it's something that their governments decide without protests. Look, obviously I'm misinformed, but we are talking about Australia, and they ban the ******** out of everything. In any case, point is lost. Violent games get protested. Mad World is violent, which I never denied.

Thee Stranger

Well, Night Trap had no nudity.

I know it had no nudity, but it did have women in their underwear, no? And sure, one might say, "What's the big deal" but like I said, that one d**k thought it was "Inappropriate" and that's how it all started.

Thee Stranger

However, another FMV game by the name of Psychic Detetctive for the 3DO did have a pretty lengthy sex scene (the best part of the game). There was no big stink about that. But the sex scene was removed from the PlayStation's port. Just thought you might have found that little tidbit interesting.

But again, if it wasn't, and some a*****e with no life noticed it in his neighbor's window, I'm sure there would've been plenty of stink about it.

Thee Stranger

Yep. Because even if there was a new Rambo every two years for the past 2.5 decades, you wouldn't be right there in the front row, Bio. Sure. But there is a new MGS game about every two years. And there will continue to be for the next 2.5 decades as long as you keep buying them.

Okay, don't compare Mario to MGS. With MGS, I own MG, MG2, MGS, MGS2, MGS3, Portable Ops, Peace Walker and MGS4. Now, they all fall into one large interrelated story arc that matters very much. If MGS was nothing but gameplay, I probably wouldn't own ANY MGS game. Unless there was no storylines in video games at all at this point, and then maybe my video game tastes would've have evolved differently. But still, even then, I'd probably own like 2 or 3 MGS games, that's it.

And no, I honestly, don't know if I'll be buying anymore MGS games. I don't know if I'll pick up rising. And if MGS goes on to make post-MGS4 sequels, I don't know if I'll bother with those either. Solid Snake's story is over. And unless there's a sequel to Peace Walker, or a remake of MG1 or MG2, I honestly don't know if I'll ever buy another new MGS game.

Thee Stranger

lol, no. The Wii did not have more hype than the PS2. Nobody knew how the Wii was going to do. Everybody knew the PS2 was going to sell like ******** hotcakes. Also, the Wii was cheap. Also, Nintendo didn't intentionally and/or knowingly not ship out enough units to meet the gigantic demand they had created for the console. Their estimates said they had shipped enough meet the demand. Also, the Wii actually had some games when it launched. I don't blame Sony for the psychos and assholes of the world -- who are always going to be there doing what they do, regardless -- but their launch strategy of the PS2 sure as hell didn't help the honest paying, sane consumers much that Christmas. Just sayin'.

Well, first of all, that's not what I heard. I heard that Nintendo was using just that same "Less supply than demand" formula. Maybe not with the Wii systems themselves, but with games like Mario Kart, and certain other high demand games. From what I heard, they didn't ship enough of them on purpose, just so that the demand for them would increase, and they'd be sold out everywhere.
Second, let's say Nintendo predicted that so many units would be sold, and they underestimated it. And Nintendo Wii was sold out everywhere for the longest time. Now, Nintendo couldn't predict something like that.
Just like Sony couldn't predict that their supply formula would cost people their lives. To blame Sony for something like that, is like blaming Rockstar for some idiot psycho who kills a bunch of cops because "Video Games told him to do it."

Thee Stranger

I'm sure he doesn't win EVERY one.

No, Cloud or Link win the other ones. Hahah.

Thee Stranger

But I'm not going by best character lists. I'm going by most of the people I see on the interent, and most of the people I see in real life.

Yea, but most of those lists are vote based. Like Gamefaqs annual best character poll. Which runs for like 2 weeks, and is basically a tournament. But it's so damn redundant, because you know who the top 3 will be.

Thee Stranger

And I'm not going to say an overwheleming majority of people hate him. But a lot of people hate him. I don't see where the downright contempt comes from, but hey. Maybe it's his over-exposure, or maybe it's someone's insecurity. I don't know, and I don't particularly care. I just know what I see.

Well, Mario is a high profile character. If Solid Snake was as big as Mario, he'd be hated by just as many people. It's to be expected.

Thee Stranger

Well, that's all well and good, Bio. I'd watch Uncharted if it were a movie, too. And as a MOVIE, it would be on par with The Mummy. Which is a fun movie that I enjoyed and everything with likable characters and action and all that. But nothing really particularly special. Nothing that I hadn't really seen before.

It's still got some pretty interesting and unique characters. And that alone is enough.

Thee Stranger

But as a VIDEOGAME, I would consider Uncharted great. Why? Because of the gameplay. In addition to its story and characters. Music and graphics are important too, but the gameplay is what it's about. Not just grinding through just so I can see the next cutscene, because the storyline is the only point of playing it.

Well, Uncharted is a bad example, because there isn't much it does wrong. It's not perfect, but it's really good in every aspect.
But let's say its gameplay is adequate, mediocre, and not as awesome as it is, with everything else, it would still be worth owning, even if the gameplay was a grind.
Like, I thought Dead Space was a grind, I know you disagree, but I did. But if it had cinematics and the main character had a personality and voice overs, and actually interacted with the other characters and not just listened to them, then that grind would be well worth it.

Thee Stranger

That's not what gaming is about to me. It's about playing the game. I pretty much got everything that was there storyline-wise in Uncharted in The Mummy. So if I just want the story, I just assume go watch ********. If I want the great gameplay, I'll go to Uncharted. Because it's a game. That's what it's about. That's the most important part of a videogame. I thought that was the point, but apparently not.

It is the most important part.

But look at games like Final Fantasy. Even your favorite one (6, right?) would you play it without the storyline? Cause if JRPGs didn't have storylines to them. More specifically, if they didn't have deep storylines, and character development... Then I wouldn't bother with them at all.

Yes, gameplay is the most important part of a game, but that's like saying the most important part of a car is that it drives you place to place. I still wouldn't want a car without at least a CD player and a decent sound system. Let's say that all cars are of the same price. And I have a choice between two cars. One that drives amazingly well, and has smooth brakes, and amazing mileage and all that stuff, but no CD player and crappy sound system. And another one that drives just okay, but has kick a** speakers, and a CD player... I'd pick that one. It still drives, and gets me to where I need to go, but now I can do so while enjoying the music I love in great quality.

Thee Stranger

Not true. Nobody but Mario can deliver Mario's particular brand of fun. Not Ratchet & Clank; not Jak & Dexter. Even with their storylines and good writing. That's nothing against those games, but they're not going to make me forget about Mario. I don't know what to tell you. Mario is classic. To me, Mario is gaming in its purest, distilled form. Mario's gameplay is the story in itself, and just seeing the new things that the creators behind it are going to come up with, watching it evolve, seeing and hearing the kind of in-things that only someone who played a lot of Mario games would catch. Mario's gameplay and his world is the experience in itself. I'm sorry you don't understand that, but hey, you were never big on Mario to begin with, so I don't expect you to. I've been gaming with Mario since the beginning, and I will continue to.

I'm not saying stop playing Mario games. You've only confirmed my statement that it's about a lot more than just the core gameplay mechanics. Which, sure, explains why you love Mario so much. But it sounds to me like the reason why you DO like Mario so much goes a lot deeper than just its gameplay.

Thee Stranger

I don't see anyway they could possibly make it work. And if they did, I doubt it would be able to come close to topping the likes of Jak & Dexter or Ratchet & Clank or something in that department. Because it's kinda hard to be "with it" and "edgy" and "funny" and all that when you're 30-frikkin'-years old.

Well, I'd love to see it.

Thee Stranger

And personally, I prefer Mario completely silent, like the Charlie Chaplin-esque character he was in the original NES games and the like. I don't really like his high-pitched voice. So I'm glad he doesn't talk much. I wish he never talked at all.

Well, to be completely fair, if it DID have a storyline like I mentioned above, I'd definitely say they needed a new voice actor for Mario. Or to be fair, the same voice actor, but a little less Castrato.

Thee Stranger

Just like how I wish Sonic or Tails never opened their ********' mouths.

Well, if they made Sonic games with storylines and voice overs like this particular show, I think it would kick a**. And honestly, I'd probably be a big Sonic fan right now. They could've done it right, they didn't it's Sega's own fault.

Thee Stranger

So in short, Bio: stay away from Mario. I don't need you ********' it up for me.

You mean PERFECTING it! cool

Thee Stranger

We're comparing Prince of Persia to Mario now? Firstly, Mario came long before Prince of Persia. The reason for Mario's overalls, hat, and pornstach? Graphical limitiations of the ancient hardware at the time. He didn't come pre-packaged as a fully fleshed-out, realized character. He started out in Donkey Kong, and for a long time, he didn't even have a name. He was just this avatar that Miyamoto stuck in all his games. Now the original Prince of Persia came around 1990. So we're treading SNES area here, not gamings beginngs. And PoP was known for quality graphics and fluid animation. Also, the story was pretty grounded in reality and didn't revolve around kooky s**t like plumbers living in Mushroom Kingdoms, saving the Princess from Godzilla.

It doesn't matter. We're no longer talking about storyline. All I'm saying is, why should a Prince of Persia remake be any less expensive than a remake of Mario? I mean, sure the New SMB for the Wii might have improved levels, and stuff like that, but I still don't think in terms of building the game itself, it took that much more resources than PoP remake.
Okay, so maybe some more, I'd say New SMB Wii shouldn't cost more than $30. At MOST. Definitely not as much as any other full blown... Legend of Zelda, Mario Galaxy etc.

Thee Stranger

What, did you play Mario Sunshine, Bio? I bet you did. For an extensive amount of time, too. And hey, were you pleased to see that Mario was doing community service as opposed to saving the princess for once? I bet you were. For all the time that you spent with any one Mario game besides ******** Mario Party, I really think you're in the position to say which is a better platformer from a purely platformer stance, from a totally unbiased viewpoint. Totally. Let alone, what would be a better platformer if it came out yet. Which would have been the new Jak game. If it came out yet. Because Mario sucks. Well, I did play Jak II, and it was all sandbox GTA-style, and I just wasn't compelled to play it for very long. Sorry. Rachet & Clank being a combo of Mario and Star Fox does sound like some serious awesomeness to me, though. I can surely see that. And I will check out those games eventually.

I'm just saying, the pure platformer genre has been incredibly reduced in its popularity, and sure, I think it's cool that SMB is still doing it.
And honestly... Okay, let's say Mario Galaxy is the best platformer of this generation. Good for Mario. But honestly...
Don't take offense... But if that is the case, then it will be the first time ever that a Mario game was the best platformer of its generation.
In the old school NES days, Mario may have started its type of platformer, but there were plenty of platformers that were better than Mario.
Same with SMB3 on SNES. Blasphemy, I know, but that's how I feel. Not to say it was bad, I just don't think it was the best.
Same with Mario 64.

Thee Stranger

Stories, yeah. Interactive movies? No.

A movie is just a story told using images and sounds.

Thee Stranger

The ancient scribblings of cavemen are stories. They aren't comic books or graphic novels. And not every game is an interactive story. Unless you would consider Grand Turismo or MLB Baseball

Like I said, a televised sporting event CAN tell a story. This includes car races and Baseball games.

Thee Stranger

Tetris or Pong games with stories. I wouldn't.

You're right, Tetris isn't a story, but I also wouldn't pay $60 for Tetris. It's a $5 brain teaser that I use to kill 5 - 10 minutes of time while I'm waiting for something.
But still, like I said, if I tried, I COULD give Tetris a context of a storyline. I'm not saying it'll be great, but I could.

Is bejeweled a story? No. But take "Puzzle Quest" for example. It's pretty much Bejeweled as we've seen it a billion times, even on free online Flash games. But they pretty much made it into a battle system for an RPG. It was great!

Thee Stranger

I don't think I ever put it like that. I think that everything from sound to graphics to what have you make up the game, and are important to the game. But yes, the point of it all? To play a game and have fun. Take out the cutscenes and voice-overs, and it's still a videogame. Take out the music, and it's still a videogame. Take out the gameplay, and you no longer have a videogame. You have something else. In MGS's case, yep, you'd have a movie. I guess that's all that's important.

Well, so far every MGS game has 4+ hours of cinematics/dialogue. Not to mention the action parts, which in this case are expressed through gameplay. So, it can't really be a movie, because movies just aren't that long.
But okay, let's divide it into chapters and look at MGS1 (for instance) as a TV Series. It would still be MGS.
But if you take all those aspects out of MGS, and just keep the gameplay, sure it's a game, but it's not MGS.

Yes, without gameplay, a game wouldn't be a game. But without those other aspects, sound, story, graphics, art style, it'll still be a game. But most of the time, I wouldn't call it a good one.

Thee Stranger

But you can count me as someone who wasted my time on VR Missions. It had a lot of cool stuff as you got further into it, like taking on a gigantic genome soldier. One particular scenario required you to solve a murder. You missed out.

Well, as I recall, you had to play through the other ones to unlock more. So maybe I missed on one VR Mission involving solving a murder, but I also saved myself a lot of time getting through brainless, "get to the exit without being spotted" missions. Now, if they unlocked concept art, or behind the scenes footage, then yeah, they'd be worth it.

For the record, in Substance, I played the Snake Tales, which did involve a giant Gurlugon soldier. But the thing is, it did have a weird sort of alternate storyline. And I thought that was pretty cool.

Thee Stranger

Are sports games telling a story? Is an online FPS telling a story? Are online RTS games telling a story? Is any multiplayer or online game you play really telling a story? Well, I guess you could say that. But that's not what I'd call an interactive movie, sorry. And what you said was that videogames have always been interactive movies. Well if that's the case, then they're pretty shallow and dumb interactive movies, and I don't see what the appeal is aside from playing them.

Well, sure, the idea is that playing them is fun. But at that point, it's like participating in said movie. The only difference between a game and a movie, as I explained it to my dense uncle, is that in a movie, you're taking a passive participation in a story. In a game, you're taking an active participating in a story. And yes, that's the appeal, it's that you're IN the story, as opposed to just watching it. But it's still an audio visual story. Just like a movie.

Thee Stranger

And FILM is a much more ideal method of intricate story telling with character development and a deep plot and all that. But you seem to think the opposite. You think film doesn't require any of that stuff to be a great film, but VIDEOGAMES of all things do. And yeah, I think your logic is a little off.

Hey, don't get me wrong. A video game with minimal dialogue, but plenty of cutscenes involving cool action sequences that can't be expressed as effectively in-game, would still kick a**.
Take God of War, for example. It's pretty cool the way they implement the Quicktime sequences into the cinematic action bits. But without those Quicktime sequences, if they simply SHOWED Kratos hook onto the titan, stab it in the eye, then get thrown off, and on his way down hook onto the titan's shoulder, pull himself up quickly and stab the titan into the other eye. It would still be just as awesome. And in certain aspects, more so, because then you can actually watch the sequence itself, and not pay attention to what button to push next and miss out on kick a** visuals.
There's a difference between a cinematic and a story. I just think both are important. And it just so happens, that most of the time, they're interrelated.

Thee Stranger

And ironic, considering that what you're basically telling me is that Mario doesn't have enough film segments in his games.

Like I said, not all films have to be dialogue heavy, but they still tell a story. Rambo is action packed, but it still tells a story through that action. Rambo enters the enemy camp, shoots the guards, explodes a few trucks and saves a POW. That's a story.

And yes, by that standard, Mario jumping through a level, stomping on a few Goombas, and reaching Bowser's castle IS a story.

But look at it this way.
Who are the enemies in Rambo? Soldiers. We generally know what soldiers are. We know there's a hierarchy in military, and they have ranks. We know that Rambo used to fight against them in the Vietnam War. We know that there's a General somewhere in there saying, "Find that American, kill him!"

So here's the thing about Mario... Forgive me if I missed something, but I still don't know what the hell Goombas are. I don't know how bowser treats them. Do they just run around maliciously, or does he say, "You little fools! Go get Mario, you little idiots!" or does he say, "Goomba General, stop Mario at all costs!" I don't even know what general relationship they have to one another. And I think it would kick a** if that stuff was elaborated on. Even if Mario has an annoying voice, and the whole thing is expressed through pure text.
If that's not what Mario is about, then I don't see any reason to get excited about another Mario game. But like we've already established, people play Mario for a different reason, and I'm clearly not that kind of a gamer.

I like taking active participation in interesting narratives. It doesn't mean that I don't find online FPS games fun every once in a while. It just means that I would never, ever pay $60, or $30, or hell... More than $5 for a purely online gaming experience.

A single player experience where I'm not immersed in the storyline is a little different. If I had a Wii, I would buy Mario Galaxy for $30. So yes, to me... I'll pay $20 - $30 for excellent gameplay and $20 - $30 for a good storyline in a video game. (So $40 - $60 total, as we usually see.)
But here's the thing, I realized about myself. If the storyline is THAT good, then I'll pay that extra $20 - $30 for mediocre gameplay. But if a game has amazing gameplay and barely any storyline, I wouldn't buy it for more than $30.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Thee Stranger

Super Mario Bros. 3 on SNES... if that wasn't a typo, you seem to be misinformed, because Mario 3 released on the NES. It did make an appearence on the SNES, but in the All Stars compilation.

Well, I'm aware that it originall came out on the NES, I guess I just assumed that the SNES version would have ended up being more popular in the long run what with having the same content, but better graphics.

Thee Stranger

And you told me that you never owned an SNES anyway, Bio. So I seriously doubt you even played Super Mario 3. And if you did, as always with you and Mario, I doubt you played it for any notable amount of time.

Define notable. I played a few levels at my ex's house, they had a SNES. I watched a lot more levels than I played. But still, aside from the neat add ons like the raccoon tail, it played just like any Mario Game as I recall. Fun, sure, but nothing spectacular.

Thee Stranger

NSMBWii is the first side-scrolling Mario game with 4-player simultaneous co-op, and that's just the beginning.

I don't recall there ever being a co-op side scroller Mario game. Correct me if I'm wrong. But here's the thing, co-op side scrollers have been around forever. You know how I say that Mario wasn't the best platformer on the NES? Well, my favorite platformer on the NES did have co-op, as did many back then. So why is it suddenly such a big deal that Mario side scroller is suddenly co-op?

Thee Stranger

And yes, I would say Mario is still the king of platformers. You can go ahead and throw your Jaks and Clanks and Banjos at me, but those games follow Mario largely in gameplay philosophy, and they haven't bumped him off his throne.

Well, I don't see why.

Thee Stranger

Whereas Resident Evil bumped Alone in the Dark off its throne. After RE, everyone pretty much forgot about AitD, and it's been trying to catch up ever since. For whatever reason, that hasn't happened to Mario, like it or not. And then everyone, including AitD, started following RE. And yeah, there were still people who preferred Silent Hill to RE. But when RE4 came out? Silent Hill still followed as always. Because RE is still the king.

Again, I don't see why. Now, Mario 64 brought the platformers to 3D, and that's cool. It introduced some cool mechanics, many of which are still common place today. And I respect that, despite the fact that it was soon surpassed by Banjo Kazooie. Now, you can say all you want about the sequels, or about popularity contests, but the simple fact is that the original Banjo and Banjo 2 played better than Mario 64. The controls were tighter, there were more features, the levels were better designed. And yes, it came after, but that doesn't change the fact. Like saying Resident Evil 3 plays better than Resident Evil 1.
Now... With RE4? It introduced some decent shooting elements. But WHY every horror game thought it was a good idea to follow, still beats the hell out of me. Now, to be fair, the first Silent Hill to have those similar mechanics was Homecoming, which was made by a different developer, who clearly weren't big enough fans of the franchise to know what it's about. Don't get me wrong, I still like the game, but mostly for its narrative, deep characters and incredible voice acting. Definitely not for its gameplay.

Thee Stranger

You follow behind the leader. Banjo and Jak follow behind their leader. Their daddy. And hey, we did have a new Banjo this gen. And apparently it wasn't so great.

Well, if it fell off because Rare is losing its touch THIS generation, nothing that can be done.

Thee Stranger

And apparently neither was the new Jak & Daxter on PSP and PS2.

Well, maybe that's because it wasn't made by Naughty Dog, who were busy with Uncharted 2. So frankly, it's a worthy sacrifice.

Thee Stranger

Sam & Max started as a PC game, I believe. They did have a comic and a cartoon, but I believe those came later. Either way, the only exposure I've had to them is through videogames, and I've always liked them. If you're a fan of oldschool PC point-and-click adventures, and lots of witty dialogue, I would suggest giving Sam & Max a try.

Well, maybe I'll give it a download on the PSN when I get paid.

Thee Stranger

Never played Road Rash 64, so I can't speak on it. But if EA put out a new Road Rash game that was true Road Rash, yes, I would buy it.

But still, the point is, I rented RR64 expecting the Road Rash experience, and instead I end up with crap. I'm just saying, a track record can easily be broken. And if they did announce a new Road Rash, I'd keep a close eye before actually trying it.

Thee Stranger

LOL. I thought MY point was that there would have been a bigger stink over The Immortal had it been popular. What you originally said was that Mortal Kombat and GTA were "unprecedented", meaning there was no previous examples of that kind of violent content in videogames before then, which is why there was such a big stink over them.

Well, then we agree... The thing about violent games is that they have to get on some a*****e's radar, before people start protesting.

Thee Stranger

And that the only reason there was issues taken with MadWorld was because it was on kiddy Wii. That's why I pointed out The Immortal to begin with, and the GTA games we had before GTAIII came along, which came before didn't cause a huge stink. And why didn't they cause a huge stink? Because they weren't super-popular like MK and GTAIII through San Andreas were. And there wasn't a HUGE stink over MadWorld either.

Well, then, MadWorld being protested is not a big deal. I mean, the whole reason why you brought it up was to point out that Wii has Violent Games, which I never denied.

Thee Stranger

And I'm sorry, I don't compare Mortal Kombat to Streets of Rage. I compare it to its contemporaries in the same genre. Which in MK's case, is Street Fighter II. A game that MK came and capatalized on the popularity of. And you can bet that if there was no SFII, there'd be no MK to begin with. So in regards of realistic effects in regards to punching people's faces, SFII wins out over MK. Sorry.

Well, another thing that gave MK realism was the artistic direction. I played SF before MK, I'm sure (though can't exactly remember), but one thing that impressed me about MK when I first picked it up was that it wasn't cartoony. The characters were made from digitized actors, which made them look as close to "real people" as it got back then. At least from everything I've seen. Which to me, meant realism.
I mean, Midway used the same technology to make one of the Wrestling games back then, and in it, if you punch Yokozuna in the stomach, fish and chicken drumsticks fell out of him. Realistic? No, but photorealistic, yes.

Thee Stranger

*sigh*... well, I didn't hear anything about Nintendo doing that. And if they did, that doesn't excuse them. But the fact of the matter is, whether or not Sony intentionally created an artificial shortage or there was genuine manfucaturing issues, they did knowingly not ship out enough PS2's to meet the overwhelming demand. And in the world of consumerism, they knew that stuff like that was bound to happen in a much higher frequency than usual. And yes, this kind of stuff always happens, regardless. Like that dude who got his finger torn off as he was leaving the store when some a*****e ripped the plastic bag that he had wrapped tightly around his finger away for the newly purchased iPad it contained. And I'm not saying that nothing like that happened with the Wii, but I didn't hear anything about that with the Wii at all. So it probably wasn't a huge problem. With the PS2 launch, it was like a friggin' police riot. It was happening left and right. If Sony held back the launch a little, so they could meet the demand, a lot less people would have gotten hurt. And dead. Like I said, I'm not blaming Sony for the psychos and assholes of the world, but they knowingly fueled the fire. And I don't like that. I think that's pretty shitty of them. Sorry.

Meh. Other than depriving people of games, I see nothing wrong with what Sony did. Like, you can say, "It's not fair that they didn't ship enough copies, because then little Timmy couldn't play his crappy launch titles. And I don't like that. I think that's pretty shitty of them." But the violent aspect of it... That's not Sony's responsibility.

Thee Stranger

And it's a lot different than the "videogames made me do it" scapegoat thing. I wouldn't blame Ozzy for someone killing themself with one of his songs about suicide playing on loop. I imagine that guy had a lot of personal problems going on which brought him to end his own existence, and he happened to identify with that song. Just like I wouldn't blame Doom for Columbine. The Columbine kids were some ******** up teenagers that shot up their school and happened to play Doom. They didn't shoot up their school BECAUSE they played Doom, and I can't speculate on the effects that anything from coloring books to First Person Shooter games have on impressionable young psychos. All I know is I played violent videogames at their age, and was bullied just like everyone else, and I didn't shoot up my school. So don't try to lump me in with all that bullshit.

Yes, but just like that, there was some idiot out there who thought that owning a Sony PS2 THEN was so important that it was okay to hurt and/or kill another human being. Just the same, that's ******** up. Except in that case, it's a lot more difficult to claim, "Sony made me do it," unless his lawyer would've made up some bullshit about Sony brainwashing people into feeling like they NEED to own one right away.
You know, in a way, it's even more messed up on behalf of our society than the "Video Games" scapegoat. Because here, it's not a violent message, it's a simple fact that that's how important this piece of hardware is to this person. And no, nobody needs a game console THAT badly, especially at launch. Which gives them even less of an excuse, which makes Sony itself even less liable. At least that's what I think.

Thee Stranger

And I don't have much else to say regarding the videogames/movies thing. You admit that gameplay is the most important part. Just like transportation is the most important part of a car. The rest of the stuff helps, yeah, and helps make the car. And people have different tastes, practical and non-practical, when it comes to automobiles. And I guess the same could be said for videogames.

But still. I wouldn't feel the need to own half, if not most sequels to my favorite franchises, if it wasn't for the storylines.
I mean, look at RE4. Does it have good core gameplay mechanics? Yes. But the overall story arc that this game fell into was so important, to me at least, that it basically ruined the game for me period. And as far as I'm concerned, that makes it a crappy game.

But again, let me reiterate back to the basics. My earliest gaming experiences, playing like, 4-bit games in the arcades, when I was like 2 years old, I remember thinking that it was a cartoon, but one that I could play with just like a toy.
I don't know why I remember that, but I do. And I remember years later, when I was like... I dunno, 7 or 8 maybe? And my mom had her friend over, and that friend brought a toddler, and I put on a video game to keep the toddler occupied, and the toddler said the same thing, he called it a cartoon, even though he was playing it.  

[Biohazard EXTREME]

Thee Stranger

- SMB3 on SNES was featured in the Mario All Stars compilation, which featured every Super Mario Bros. game up until that point (with the exception of Super Mario World, which was the SNES sequel), including the original Japanese version of SMB2 (titled "the lost levels") and the original Mario Bros with updated SNES graphics. Sure, it was popular and everything, but SMB3 is primarily known as an NES Mario game. Just as Super Mario World is primarily known as an SNES game, even though it too has seen its ports.

Well, I didn't really look at the cartrige, maybe there were other mario games on it. *shrug*

Thee Stranger

- No, there has never been co-op before in a 2D Mario game, which is partly why it's a big deal. And what was your favorite NES platformer? Contra? Yeah, I guess you could call that a platformer. But I'd say it's more shooting than platforming. And other than that, what were all these co-op platformers on NES? Because I don't remember there being a whole helluva lot.

No, not Contra. Honestly? Chip N' Dale Rescue Rangers 2. That game kicked so much a**. Oh, and sidenote, it had a storyline with dialogue and everything. Sure, I couldn't understand a word of it at the time, but it makes it that much easier to appreciate it even now.

Thee Stranger

Side-scrollers, like, in the beat-'em-up genre, yeah. Sure. There were a good few of those. But they weren't platformers. So I wanna hear about all these co-op platformers on NES, because I must have missed them.

Okay, I guess it wasn't overflowing with them. I guess most of those were side scrollers. But still, Chip N' Dale Rescue Rangers 1 and 2 were the ones I loved the most, and part 2 is my favorite platformer on the NES.

Thee Stranger

s**t, even 3D co-op platformers are a rare commodity. And playing 2 - 4 player 2D Mario is nothing like co-op Double Dragon, Battletoads, TMNT, or even Contra. And if you actually try it, you'll see why.

Well, that's all good and fine. But I sure as hell wouldn't pay $60 (here in Canada) to 'try it.'

Thee Stranger

- And I never denied that Banjo and Tooie were a better platformers, so I'm not sure why you're still trying to convince me. Hell, Conker was by far my favorite N64 platformer. It doesn't change anything. And I'm not sure who developed the latest Silent Hill, but the camera still looks RE4-style.

And yet, it has no combat system whatsoever, let alone over the shoulder shooting with a merchant and quicktime sequences. But yes, if I had to list one negative about the ever-awesome new Silent Hill, the camera would be it.
Which, again, I understand WHY they used it, because they wanted to use the Wii remote as the flashlight, which only makes me say again, motion controls have as much potential to hinder a game as they do improve it.

Thee Stranger

- Yeah. Rare lost its touch. Nintendo didn't.

Well, Rare became Microsoft's b***h. Some fat CEO probably drowned in a pool of his own money, meanwhile the developers themselves lost all their morale.

Thee Stranger

- Maybe so. But the team is also made up of former members of Naughty Dog and Insomniac. It still doesn't change anything, though. We've had new Jak and Banjo games. They didn't measure up. And I could easily have applied the statement, "Mario is only the best platformer right now, because there's no other great platformers" to Jak & Daxter last gen. Unless you consider Mario Sunshine great, which I know you don't. I could apply that statement to any videogame from any genre, that's why it just comes off as dumb to me. I mean, the statement is pretty much this in a nutshell: "It's only the best because there's nothing better". Well, durr. That's why it's the best. Because there's nothing better right now.

Alright, I guess I see your point. But still, that's not counting the hybrids. In spite of Ratchet and Clank having flying spaceship battles like Starfox, and a crapload of firearms... Basically, Ratchet took pretty much 3-4 different gaming genres and blended them into one...
It's like, if you take Tomb Raider (a different kind of platformer) and Gears of War, a shooter, and combine their mechanics, you basically get Uncharted. But I can still say, "Uncharted is so much better than Tomb Raider because not only does it have awesome platforming just like in Tomb Raider, but it also has a kick a** combat system, which Tomb Raider doesn't."
So in that sense, I COULD say, not only does Ratchet have awesome platforming, but it also has awesome shooting mechanics, and spaceship battles. Which does put it above "Pure Platformer" in my book.

Thee Stranger

- Really, I think you'd like Sam & Max. And there are action segments here and there as well.

Well, I tried the demo on the PSN, and I gotta say, it kinda sucks. I dunno, maybe the one on the Wii is better, but the downloadable... The animations were so jittery that it just bugged the hell out of me, and the voice over syncing was pretty bad too.

Thee Stranger

- No, MadWorld being protested is not a particularly big deal. I was just trying to point out that Nintendo was getting some s**t from the soccer moms that they're "only interested in catering to", and basically told them to watch their damn kids, use the parental controls of the console, and ******** off. No, you never denied there being violent games. What you were basically saying is that Nintendo tries to stay away from that stuff, not involve themselves in it or promote it, and keep their hands clean of it. Which is why I pointed out all the other stuff as well, like the M-rated games they've worked on and published, and the RE exclusivity. Unfortunately, their first party M-rated games on their last console didn't perform very well. And Geist was admittedly fairly mediocre. So they're sticking to their strengths and what sells their brand. That doesn't mean good M-rated games don't come to the Wii.

No, but it does mean that the Wii takes pride of itself as a kiddie platform. Like you said, why did the soccer moms complain? Because they were under the impression that the Wii IS a kiddie platform. They figured, "Well, I'll just get my little Johnny the Wii and then I won't have to worry myself with monitoring its content."
Which, granted, is the soccer mom's own fault. But it's probably one of the factors why MadWorld didn't sell very well.
I'm not saying that Nintendo turns away from M rated games. I'm just saying, they have a reputation as a kiddy company and they don't bother turning away from THAT. Hell, take Sony and Microsoft, which consider themselves "Electronics" companies. Nintendo officially considers itself a "Toy" company, it really does.

Thee Stranger

- See, the digitized characters of MK is another thing that made it cheesy for me. And the animations were all very stiff, unlike SFII. I have nothing against MK. I like MK, and blood and fatalities are cool and everything, but I've always preferred Street Fighter.

That's fine. But I never considered MK cheesy. I always thought it was badass. Like a good Heavy Metal album. Over the top? Sure. But in a good way. Like, I don't play Mortal Kombat to laugh at it, going, "hehe, that's so cheesy."

Thee Stranger

- LOL. I didn't say s**t about little Timmy not being able to play his s**t-for-launch-titles PS2 on Christmas. ******** Timmy. And ******** the launch PS2. Why? NO ********' GAMES. There was nothing to riot over to begin with besides the over-inflated, paper-thin hype Sony created. It was nothing that even a psycho should have considered shooting someone over until the tail-end of 2001.

Well, the Dark Knight proved that hype is very important to sales.
Again, what was Sony supposed to do, NOT create hype?

Thee Stranger

And for the last time, I never said Sony was directly responsible. They were indirectly responsible.

Still, I wouldn't say actively. Like, if I was the guy who came up with that marketing idea, and news got to me that some lady got killed by some idiot, yeah, it'd be like, "Damn, that really sucks." But I wouldn't feel responsible for it. I wouldn't feel like that death is on my shoulders at ALL.

Thee Stranger

They didn't create the psychos, they just knowingly and inadvertently fueled the already-existing fire into a roaring hot blaze. And when I first brought this up, remember how I said, "Way to go Sony, and way to go humanity"? Yeah. I was never excusing the psychos and letting ALL of the blame rest with Sony. You just stopped listening at the Sony part and ran with that. But nothing you say is going to change my feelings in regards of the PS2 launch. I don't like what Sony did. It caused more needless damage than it should have. Sony could have reversed much of that damage had they handled the launch differently. But Sony wasn't interested in damage control. They were only interested in creating even more hype for their console, which didn't have diddly-d**k for games at the time.

Well, look, you can respect Sony, you can respect Nintendo, or whoever, but they are companies, and their primary goal first and foremost is to make money. I don't think either Sony OR Nintendo or Microsoft sits there going, "Alright guys. Forget profits. Let's talk integrity!"

Thee Stranger

- Okay. But it's a cartoon you play with. Play. And that doesn't make Mario any less of an "interactive cartoon/movie" than anything else on the market.

Well, that's a different conversation entirely. Yes, even Mario in itself is an interactive cartoon. I do acknowledge the fact that Mario has SOME story. Just, not enough for me.

Thee Stranger

I enjoy story-heavy games, and following their narratives through into their respective sequels as well. But that isn't the sole reason I buy or play the sequels. Otherwise, I would have dropped MGS long ago.

Well, it's vice versa for me. Like I said, if MGS had no storyline, I would have dropped it long ago.
And once the Resident Evil storyline started sucking as you can see I dropped it faster than a five dollar hoe.
Did I think the over the shoulder controls were the right move for RE? No, but that's just nitpicking AFTER the fact that the storyline has turned into s**t. It's not the, "It's not even a Survival Horror franchise anymore" that put me off (although it is a factor), it's the story arc.

Thee Stranger

And I don't play Mario for its storyline. That's not what brings me back to his sequels. I play Mario to play a fun, addicting game. And that's it. If you want to call it an "interactive cartoon", fine. Go right ahead. But I'll just call it a videogame.

Like I said, the only difference between an animated film and a video game is that the latter is interactive. Look at Dragon's Lair, for example, or the trend of FMV games that came in the 1990's. They are GAMES, even though they're pretty much pick your adventure movies. So what makes them games? Giving you the audience member the power of decision making. Even if those decisions don't necessarily amount to extremely varying consequences.
You're virtually assuming the role of the protagonist, instead of passively watching them do their thing. That's the only difference, I see.

Now, my whole problem with games like Mario... And again, I don't mean to insult Mario games, they're fun games sure, but here's the thing. The statement I made above... I don't WANT to assume the role of a fat plumber with a high voice who's trying to save the princess. Why would I want to be this guy?
Let's say, for example, Mario games had a larger story arc, and Mario had personality and stuff like that, the reason why I'd want to see something like that, is because then maybe it would give this character some... CHARACTER. It would make him likable, and make me WANT to be Mario. But as of right now, I don't see why I would want to play as a character like Mario.

And Mario isn't the only one. I mean, I love Survival Horror, but the main reason I couldn't get into Fatal Frame (2 was the one I played) is because you're playing as a 12 year old Japanese girl looking for her sister. And again, assuming the role of a 12 year old Japanese girl who as far as I've played, didn't display any kind of real personality... Something like that does NOTHING for me. That, I would say, is the #1 reason why I didn't like Fatal Frame. Maybe it's the same with Dead Space.
What it boils down to is, storylines aside, I want to play as a character who I'd want to be like.
And even if it's angsty Squall in FF8, or Link in Zelda who gets no dialogue at all or the protagonist in Persona 3 who's also pretty much a silent hero and looks like and emo kid... Or Jill who's a girl.// I haven't really figured out what it is that makes those characters appealing... But that's the thing. If I don't like the character, I don't want to play as them. And I don't like Mario as a character.