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God, and Good, and Evil... a movement of discussion...

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Eltanin Sadachbia
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:42 pm


Chieftain Twilight
Eltanin Sadachbia
Chieftain Twilight
Eltanin Sadachbia
Chieftain Twilight
hmm... i am rather confused on this part.

could you clarify, please?


Well, I believe that every person has a purpose to which they are here. I don't believe anyone's purpose is to die. I do believe God loves each one of us and that we walk in His will while we fullfill the purpose He has for us...

Yet, sometimes, people go against what God wants for us. Sometimes they sin and hurt people. They use their free will and choose to do what is wrong. The people who killed your friend were not doing God's purpose. I do not believe it was God's will that your friend died... at the moment, your friend's death has no purpose...

Yet because I believe that God loves us, I do believe that God has given people who are left behind after such senseless deaths the ability to take the vanity away from it. You and those who were close to Mal can keep the spirit of the purpose of his recent life alive by keeping his memory in a positive and constructive way, thus turning the insanity of his death into to a new way to spread his individual light...

Sorry if it's more confusing. I may need to wait for tomorrow to respond. I am stumbling on words in my head now...


hmm... feels alot to me like you are trying to say that God's Will has a direct link to the way we conduct our lives on the Material World. o.o i suppose that should be what most christianity believes, but it just feels like a new concept to me. xd


Well, I guess that is how it does come across, doesn't it? *Looks around for the emotes*

WHERE'S MY DAMNED EMOTES! GAHHHH!!! *throws pencil at the door*

Ummm, sorry... They have glitched away my only form of simulated expression, and I don't know what to do!

Anyway, I do believe that God gave us free will to make our decisions to live our lives as we choose, and that it is not His will for us to have our ability to decide for ourselves taken away by the actions of others.

So, in a way, we fulfill our purpose just by living, and we fulfill His purpose by loving each other. We are completely against God when we are bringing harm to others.

I don't really think God's will actually conducts how we make our choices directly until we choose if we want a religion or not, and then we make our choices by what our chosen religion dictates. Even so, it isn't God directly effecting the way we live our life, it is the way our chosen religion is perceived by us that directs how we make our choices by it.

Anyway, I believe our God granted free will is directly responsible for how we live our lives, and God would have it no other way. I think He has given us the tools to live our lives, and it is up to each individual to choose whether they will be constructive or destructive.

I believe that It is not God's will that people choose the destructive path, but it would not be free will if we could not take that path once we chose to do so.

Because God knew people would choose to be destructive, He gave everyone the tools to help mend the destruction others caused. I feel that this is proof of God's love for us. Even when we feel as though we have been abandoned, we still have these constructive abilities endowed within us.


huh.... o.o that actually makes alot of sense.

i'm not sure yet if i fully believe it, i have to compare it to some other stuff first, which means digging around for what survived of my research notes, and going through my sources for the stuff that my folks deleted.... i wanna see whether this fits or not with other info i gathered regarding the whole God/Satan relationship.


ScarletFrost
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ScarletFrost
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ScarletFrost
Eltranin, you haven't mentioned the other force. If God gives us the tools to heal and rebuild, then wouldn't Satan be the author of tools to harm and destroy? Really, that's the only way he can get back at God for being thrown out of heaven and hobbled: hurting God by hurting those He loves.

There was once an interesting movie about Armageddon and the anti-Christ and all that, and at the end, the villain said something when asked why he thought he could win; he said (something along the lines of) "all these people willing to die for me, willing to do what I tell them, they are my victories, my trophies, because they have rejected God."

That's just my two cents. sweatdrop


see though, i'm not totally convinced that Satan is nessesarilly against God. maybe and Orchestrator for the mayhem and Godlessness; more likely a God's-Agent Tempter; and still quite possibly an actual Go-Between for God to Mortals.

furthermore, the mythology about Satan has been mucked up with too many Pagan figures, in a political attempt to monopolize christianity in the Dark Ages. Catholicism is a purely political christian movement designed to combat belief in anything other than monotheism, while furthering the goals of the pope and clergy. it was a mass takeover effect, and the best tool they had for the job was the Scapegoat: Satan. they called every deity or hero or villain who's story in any mythology opposed the goals of the Church Satan, or one of his Demons, and used that to convert the masses.


Or maybe he's had a hand in everything--making himself out to not be that bad when from the beginning when he deceived Eve, he's been gunning for the destruction of mankind. I've heard theories about "what would happen if Satan repented" and "Does God still love Satan" and all kinds of things, but 99% of everything regarding Satan is speculation. You really don't see him much in the bible, and his largest roles were in Job and the NT. Sure, he's the father of discord, but he makes certain someone else takes the credit/blame.


heh... i still find the research i've done to be so enlightening... but i'll admit the possibilities. after all, even i find the Bible to be RIPE with accurate information...


Your open mind is one of the things I find so pleasant about you. ^_^


Eltanin Sadachbia
"Satan" is not one entity, although through the generations, that is what the story has been translated into. The word Satan is literally translated to mean "adversary". Lucifer was just a title for a king who turned his back on god. The role of spirits has been watered down and Christianity uses their personification of "Satan" as a way to pass the blame off of their own shoulders, and to try and say that all that we consider bad in the world is the fault of the Devil and forget that we ourselves have free will to choose to do right or do wrong...

I could give you lists and lists of names of devils and demons, yet they are still inhibited by God's will. They can only tempt us to choose right or wrong, not take our will away. Even when a person opens themselves up for possession, they do not completely lose their free will, but that again is a topic for another thread...

When Genesis talks of the Satan (adversary) in the Garden, the original Hebrew word indicates that the adversary at the time was an agent of God. What good is freewill if there is nothing there to test it? Other sources (non-Biblical of course, but Hebraic and of earlier origins than many Cannonical books) say that the angel who tempted Eve was Gadriel, who was a grigori, who in one of the translations of Enoch is said to have "fallen" some time after the expulsion from the Garden for the sake of the daughters of men.

Anyway, the main thing I am getting at is even though there are those dark forces in the word that run counter to God, a person must first choose to follow those forces. A devil did not kill Mal, a person did.

We give the evil side of spirituality more credit than it deserves as even though there are spirits who despise God, they can not choose to go against His will as we can. That is the fundamental difference between Humans and Angels. It is a bit complicated and almost scary on what a person would believe it implies, at first.


ScarletFrost
Eltanin Sadachbia
Anyway, the main thing I am getting at is even though there are those dark forces in the word that run counter to God, a person must first choose to follow those forces. A devil did not kill Mal, a person did.


What I was trying to say is basically that the dark forces tempt people to do wrong things. It may not be as obvious as a talking snake, the ripples of actions can spark new actions, and if we listen to the darker impulses of our human natures, we're just playing into the evil.

I do believe there is one original source of evil. Just for the record. ^_^
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:44 pm


HOLY CRAP!!!

That was allot to move, yet I think I got the whole conversation... Don't kill me...

Anyway, I am really interested in what people think about... well... EVERYTHING!

So I really want to continue the current conversation in the appropriate place. I am sorry Chief for hijacking your thread. It wasn't intentional.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:48 pm


As for the current thought... If God created EVERYTHING, then what is God's connection with evil?

I know what I believe, but at this point I am ready to let some other folks have the first say. Then I will give a somewhat heretical voicing of my own opinion, and hope the other Christians don't stone me.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:36 pm


I think it's the same as light's connection to dark, or love's connection to hate. Without light, darkness prevails. It doesn't mean the light is to blame for darkness. Nor is love to blame when hate fills its absence. The beauty of free moral agency--the bitter gift that came from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil--is being able to discern and decide for yourself.

And I wouldn't stone you. I'd run out of rocks if I tried to stone everyone who disagreed with me. sweatdrop

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:12 pm


Well, here is a million dollar question that no one has been able to answer to my satisfaction...

If it were not for the evil, how would we know what is good? If it weren't for the dark, how would we know the significance of the light. Without wrong, what good is free will? If the only actions that could be taken were good and right actions, then there really would be no purpose for free will at all would there?

In this I agree with Chieftain, that God created the ability for us to do bad things. You see, God had to make a rule that could be broken before sin could even start. If God did not want sin in the world, then all that He had to do was neglect to make a rule for humanity to disobey. The Old Testament is the Covenant of the Law. He may not have made us sin, but He made the sin when He defined it for us by saying that these things are what you can do, and these things are what you can't do. For what else is sin but the definition of the actions (or lack thereof) in which cause us to "miss the mark" of what God wants from and for us.

I don't believe God wanted slaves, and so for us to be more than dolls, we need to be given the opportunity to rise above the self. We would never do that if all that we wanted and needed automatically came to us for eternity, and we would never truly appreciate where we came from or who we are, or what purpose our lives have.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:23 pm


In truth, I think the original question of our free will was whether we would choose to live forever in ignorance, or choose to live for a finite period of time with the ambition to become better than what we are. In the end, either way would have a downside and an upside. I don't believe Eden was the perfect paradise Christianity likes to hail it as. Adam and Eve had responsibilities there. They had work to do. The wonderful thing about Eden that would be paradisaical would be the ultimate knowledge that you were basking in God's presence. Yet in their ignorance, they could never fathom the reality of the consequences of the separation from God once they chose knowledge.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:07 pm


Eltanin Sadachbia
Well, here is a million dollar question that no one has been able to answer to my satisfaction...

If it were not for the evil, how would we know what is good? If it weren't for the dark, how would we know the significance of the light. Without wrong, what good is free will? If the only actions that could be taken were good and right actions, then there really would be no purpose for free will at all would there?



In short, we would not know what good was without evil. Just like we wouldn't know peace without war. Everything would just be standard, medium, boring, unenlightened, and void.
As for free will, being that this discussion is based on the idea that free will exist, then we would use our free will to determine other things. Each step we take demonstrates free will and not all decisions are based on a good vs. bad. I suppose it would become a good vs. better way of thinking.

Sorry it's late for me and my mind is completely functioning. So this is at least my little statement to start.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:26 pm


If you're concerned about free moral agency, consider this: the bible actually says that Christ had been slain from the foundations of the earth--which means before Gen 1:1, it was written in proverbial stone that man would transgress and Christ would have to be the atoning sacrifice.

So did Adam and Eve even have a chance of resisting the serpent in the garden?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:47 pm


i would say that God as we know him isn't nessesarilly teh same God in the beginning of the Book of Genesis. lemme clarify.

"in the beginning, there was Nothing; then God said 'Let there Be Light', and there was Light. and God saw the Light and it was Good, and He divided the Darkness from the Light."

the way i interpret this, is that God was Nothing and Everything simultaneously, and when God became Conscious, he became All Creation and Existance. but He is also the Force of Destruction. you can think of it as the Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva trio of Hinduism (Creator/Maintainer/Destroyer).

He divided the Light from the Darkness, and this is a way of Dualizing the world, so as to make it perceivable. but in Reality, all things come together.

we look at God, and think of Him as Pure Good, because He has chosen to divide Himself from Evil. but the Evil came from the same source, and was a part of Him. it is only by Dualizing God that we are able to discern Him, but in doing so we dilute His Ultimateness, and His Glory. the Pre-Genesis form of God is like Kali-ma, and the God we know is like Durga when Benevolent, and Kali when Vengeful. i think the Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Wiccans tend to forget that God/Goddess is all, and that the Pure Good form is only one Aspect. the Evil also originates from the same source as the Good in a single Being.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

as for Adam and Eve... i'm not realy certain where i stand on Destiny.... is Destiny ever-changing? is it Set-in-Stone?

i think that if Destiny were unchangeable, than even God would be powerless to it, and that just doesn't seem to be Omnipotent. if God is Omnipotent, than he'd be able to change Destiny, and there is no reason we wouldn't be able to either. besides, if we look at it Scientifically, we know that Particles actually pop into and out of our Reality, through various different Realities, and are even in multiple Realities at once. this idea of Alternate Realities solidifies my belief in Infinite Possibility and Potential, and that is why i am willing to bet that Destiny is Changeable.

as for whether or not that means Adam and Eve realy had a choice, i think the truth is, that each choice they could possibly make happens, so some Reality had to have this possibility. what this means fundamentally gets tricky, and i'll need more tim eto philosophize on it.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:39 pm


An interesting quote from Stargate (of all obscure and random sources): Destiny is shaped by those with the courage to change it.

...or something like that. razz

My take on the old paradox of how God could know the outcome everything and humans could still have free will, is that God is like an uber-chess player. He is so vast in His knowledge and wisdom that He can project all possibilities and the odds of them happening, just like chess player thinking 20 moves ahead, only in the most extreme sense.

I think Adam and Eve did have a very real chance to refuse. But the odds were probably 50/50 that if they made the right choice, their children might not have (look at what happened to Cain), or their grand children, or great grand children. Eventually somewhere down the line, someone would have messed up, and therefore Christ would have to give up His life to make up for that.

Just my two yen. razz

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