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Chieftain Twilight Captain
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Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:49 pm
so, I was contacted by a member of another Guild I am in, via a PM with the Subject tittled "you were right all along", concerning my vehement dislike of capitalism. here is how that conversation went up to a point. Ethereal Cereal Chieftain Twilight Ethereal Cereal Looking over some of the posts I made in my thread regarding piracy, I have to say that, while some of your more...I guess I'll say 'liberal' tendencies do admittedly grate my nerves (a good deal at times), Capitalism is an absolute bane to our existence. After having gotten back into contact with a friend with whom I had a falling-out some time ago, discussions abound about his political ideologies and whatnot (coming from a pot-smoking gun enthusiast, it should be no surprise), and I, too, have come to the realization that Capitalism is no good. Question is, though, exactly what would work in its place? History has shown us that every human government tried to this day has fallen flat on its face, nor do I have much faith in humankind to make a government that will. I'd much rather not believe in an Anarchic government, because the ideal of 'survival of the fittest' is far too Darwin for its own good. The human race is the master of this planet; the most intelligent species and by an unfortunate consequence, the most animalistic. However, I think that embracing Darwinism only embraces the barbaric nature of our kind, making us even more animal than we're known to be. I hate to be pragmatic here, but we need something that benefits all of us; something that cares for the physically and mentally strong, as well as the weak. Something that wouldn't allow those with money to gain influence in the government, but yet something that would embrace the ideal of 'anything goes,' and 'your future is what you make of it,' something that would allow for people to go on working and actually earning their own living, rather than having to share it off like Marxist Communism would dictate. What we need is something that takes the best of everything, rejects the worst, and puts into place a series of checks and balances to prevent any form of corruption from occurring. Just felt like sharing that, because I may have had an epiphany just now. well, I'm not bothered at all by the idea of Anarchy. there realy is no preventing the Strong/Powerful from running things anyway, because even when you hve laws for the sake of others, those laws only matter as long as you can enforce them. also, I don't agree that Humans are the most intelligent. we simply have a different direction of evolution than other animals, and it works to our advantage. there are alot of other animals which have surprisingly human-like intelligence and behaviors. Dolphins, Dogs, Cats, Birds of all kinds, and especially Apes. Chimpanzees and Orangutans interest me the most. anywho, I still believe that an Anarcho-Commune is best. I intend to secede from the U.S. as soon as I safely can, and live a very Amish-styled existence with a group of like-minded individuals. Science likes to say a lot of things, but what I can't help but wonder is why we're the dominant species on the planet if we're not the most intelligent. Keep in mind that by 'intelligence' I'm talking about self-awareness and other such abstract lines of thinking. I don't know of any animals out there who have any measure of intelligence that don't still run on instinct, whereas humans have instinct, but we also have those other qualities. Either way, while I can't see Capitalism doing anything but being a detriment to our society even further (especially with groups like that Bilderberg Group trying to snake its way into every aspect of our lives), but at the same time I shudder to think what OTHER forms of government could crop up. That's why someone needs to take the bits and pieces from each system that work and come up with something fluid. Also, best of luck with the secession. If you haven't already, take a look at this. I thought it was kind of interesting. the link at the bottom of the quote is quite an interesting article, which I would like to discuss. for convenience's sake, I'll repost it here: http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Treanor/secession.htmlas a little note, there was also a little trailing off you might have noticed concerning the intelligence of non-human animals. I didn't press that argument with him, favouring the discussion about Politics for the moment. however, I do intend to later post a discussion about Animal Intelligence. anywho, the tl;dr version of the topic on the other end of the link is that liber-democratic political theory is ironically pro-nationalist, and anti-seccessionist. the Democratic Process as it is implemented in the known world is not truely concerned with giving each people the right to self-governance, but rather to allowing the majority of rather large nations consisting of thousands of citizens decide the laws, practices, and customs of the entire super-state. the smaller territories or ethnic-nations are denied their right to Seccede and form Democracies of tight-knit like-minded people, who would be happy to live according to their culture. a State is recognized by the UN, or EU, or even the U.S. only if they encompass enoremous poplation. meanwhile, a group of only 500 people connected by culture, policy, and language is considered only as a Tribe, and forced to exist only under the sovereignity of a larger State. in my opinion, this is evidece that their realy is no difference between the republicans, democrats, socialists, or marxist-communists. they all desire the unity of States under a larger super-state. a republic which is dictated by either the majority of thousands (despite what any minorities might want) or a powerful dictator (no matter what anyone else wants). and in all cases, anyone who decides that allowing people to live-and-let-live, by way of forming tens of thousands of smaller Democracies instead of a few large democratic super-nations, can be legally targeted by the military for treason. discuss.
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Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:32 pm
I'm definitely an anarchist, but thinking of anarchism as a "political ideology" gets the meanings very convoluted and misunderstood."Anarchist government" really makes absolutely no sense at all. Really I just don't like the current style of governance. I don't like nation states, I don't like the fact that our mono-culture is so dominant over every species, every culture, and every person in all areas of the planet. I don't like the fact that we've been forced to comply with such a barbaric system of governance, and accept it like it's somehow righteous. Capitalism to me implies exploitation on a larger level, but honestly communism on a nation-state level is both impossible and really not a great alternative.
Humans are dominant because nation states are dominant. Without a larger society and a large agricultural base such an endeavour is impossible. Population expansion only takes place, and only can take place if you have those conditions. Nation states are the reason we're dominant. Intelligence has maybe a little bit to do with that but really not very much. It probably came about mostly as a series of accidents and continued on a different trajectory, all the while little accomplishments popping up to make the whole thing more bearable.
Anarchism doesn't have to be barbaric at all. Like I said, it's not really an ideology. It's mostly just... really, really counter-culture. And no matter what, a level of group solidarity is necessary for people to survive. The kind we have right now is one that thrives on exploitation, and that's the reason I say ******** that. At the current rate of resource consumption and destruction, many nation states are absolutely going to collapse. The question is only when they do. I'm personally looking forward to it. I only wish I didn't have to wait so long. I'm getting tired.
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Chieftain Twilight Captain
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Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:32 pm
you are very right, even Anarchist Groups of People would not be able to survive without some system of Social Order or Orginzation. everyone has to work together.
when I think Anarchy, I don't think government. I think Self-Governed Tribal Resource-based Communes.
I realy do hate the larger super-power nations... if only they'd let smaller Nation-States exist, in a live-and-let-live, true self-governance way, with Peace Treaties and Trade Agreements...
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Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:27 pm
It's been said many times in just as many ways: Anarchy=/=Chaos. Anarchy means "without rulers." In a proper Anarcho-Syndicalist/Democratic Socialist society, because everyone has equal power and equal say, there are no "rulers" in the classic sense. Everyone's a ruler, and therefore no-one is. ... My train of thought has just derailed, careened into a ravine, and exploded. sweatdrop
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Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:37 pm
Well, I suppose I am just of the opinion that not everyone can be happy, and therefore you need to cater to the majority.
I see the flaws of capitalism, but I also see the benefits, and I think we should evolve what we have already invested so much of our evolution into , than just scrap it and start over.
I really think that the key to evolving capitalism into something that more people would benefit from is by adding many socialistic values, and overhauling many necessary 'services' and requirements that tend to take money from the people just to try and turn it over for profit, or to spend (ex: Insurance, taxes).
Money isn't the enemy really, the enemy is greed, and if we didn't have money, then there would just be something else to pop up and take it's place for people to demonize. Eliminating money won't eliminate greed, the only way to fight greed is to become aware of it, and face it head on. Money is the mirror of our greed, not the cause of it, so I don't really hate capitalism, I am just ready to see what it evolves to.
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Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:02 pm
Chieftain Twilight you are very right, even Anarchist Groups of People would not be able to survive without some system of Social Order or Orginzation. everyone has to work together. when I think Anarchy, I don't think government. I think Self-Governed Tribal Resource-based Communes. I realy do hate the larger super-power nations... if only they'd let smaller Nation-States exist, in a live-and-let-live, true self-governance way, with Peace Treaties and Trade Agreements... Absolutely. It's completely necessary. Anarchism is kind of centred around that actually. The idea of setting up the means to survive outside of larger culture. I kinda just think of bands of people surviving and using their own skills as needed or as desired. I was wondering... have you ever stayed in a punk house? If not, you should. It's amazing. Close to where I live there was this huge community of people who built cabins on the shoreline and lived their own separate lives, doing what they needed to do to subsist. After a while the local government caught on and all of these people were forced from their homes. Many committed suicide. It was terribly tragic and this happens everywhere we look. People should just be able to survive as is demanded. Cultures should be able to live without one dominating over all others. I don't like the idea of there being one set way of life, regardless of what it actually entails. I find it kind of disgusting actually, as well as systems that take the livelihood away from others.
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Chieftain Twilight Captain
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Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:17 am
Figuren Chieftain Twilight you are very right, even Anarchist Groups of People would not be able to survive without some system of Social Order or Orginzation. everyone has to work together. when I think Anarchy, I don't think government. I think Self-Governed Tribal Resource-based Communes. I realy do hate the larger super-power nations... if only they'd let smaller Nation-States exist, in a live-and-let-live, true self-governance way, with Peace Treaties and Trade Agreements... Absolutely. It's completely necessary. Anarchism is kind of centred around that actually. The idea of setting up the means to survive outside of larger culture. I kinda just think of bands of people surviving and using their own skills as needed or as desired. I was wondering... have you ever stayed in a punk house? If not, you should. It's amazing. Close to where I live there was this huge community of people who built cabins on the shoreline and lived their own separate lives, doing what they needed to do to subsist. After a while the local government caught on and all of these people were forced from their homes. Many committed suicide. It was terribly tragic and this happens everywhere we look. People should just be able to survive as is demanded. Cultures should be able to live without one dominating over all others. I don't like the idea of there being one set way of life, regardless of what it actually entails. I find it kind of disgusting actually, as well as systems that take the livelihood away from others. actually, no I havn't. but I have been wanting to. smile my parents raised me very much a Hippie, but I lean more toward a Punkish attitude. my parents both believe in the strength of unions and republics, and that is where I dissent from both of them. I have lived in their house; I have been kicked out of their house a number of times and had to fend for myself; I've crashed in friends' homes before; I've lived an entire Summer in the house owned by the parents of one of my friends, along with him his wife (before they divorced. I actually have known her since the days of diapers, so I'm still both their friends even though they no longer get along). I have been around, and seen lots of ways of living. still, nothing calls to me like the thought of Tribal Communal Life.
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Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:33 am
Eltanin Sadachbia Well, I suppose I am just of the opinion that not everyone can be happy, and therefore you need to cater to the majority. I see the flaws of capitalism, but I also see the benefits, and I think we should evolve what we have already invested so much of our evolution into , than just scrap it and start over. I really think that the key to evolving capitalism into something that more people would benefit from is by adding many socialistic values, and overhauling many necessary 'services' and requirements that tend to take money from the people just to try and turn it over for profit, or to spend (ex: Insurance, taxes). Money isn't the enemy really, the enemy is greed, and if we didn't have money, then there would just be something else to pop up and take it's place for people to demonize. Eliminating money won't eliminate greed, the only way to fight greed is to become aware of it, and face it head on. Money is the mirror of our greed, not the cause of it, so I don't really hate capitalism, I am just ready to see what it evolves to. who ever said appeal to everyone? that's one of the reasons I'm against large super-power nations; they control so much territory, and rule over such large populations. we needn't govern in such large ranges. let smaller and smaller territories and the populations living there govern themselves as they will. I agree, money itself isn't the problem. but regardless of whether money is the problem or not, capitalism IS all about greed. it is a system where everything is centered around profit, and none of the actual human needs are taken into account other than to keep the system alive. the bare minimum that the government ad/or corporations can get away with is all that's ever realy given to the People. and not even to everyone! far too many are just left to fall through the cracks... and adding socialist ideas for the sake of maintaining the capitalist system will only make things worse. beuracracy, subsidies, registrations of everything... nobody will have any privacy, nobody will have the rights to anything that is theirs. there will be no real security. capitlist socialism is the direction america is already headed, and I hate it. there may be Equality, but at lack of Liberty and Security. we need Liberty, Equality, AND Security. capitalism came about in the feudal age, after money had already been invented. so your right, money itself isn't the problem. but capitalism IS greed, and it IS the problem. and at this point, I think they only way to realy fight capitalism is to fight money. the way money works in the world has evolved to a point where we can't go back anymore. but we CAN return to a Resource-Based economy, and from their the bater-system can allow us to eventually move to another system of money. and it would be useful, but we'd have to remember not to reinstate capitalism. Socialism on a Syndicist level is more beneficial than on a buerocratic level. Tribal Communes are some of the most effective and proper systems of Social Order. everyone within the Tribe/Commune/Syndicate/Clan shares what they have. everyone plays their part. everyone looks out for everyone else. everyone benefits. the only reason we don't see alot ofthese is because the ones that are known about get exploited, used, and eventually adopted into the fold of the super-power nations and their governments. hell, even alot that we DON"T know about do! if the super-powers weren't around to bother them, these Tribes would continue to live and THRIVE!
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Chieftain Twilight Captain
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Chieftain Twilight Captain
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Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:42 am
Manguusu It's been said many times in just as many ways: Anarchy=/=Chaos. Anarchy means "without rulers." In a proper Anarcho-Syndicalist/Democratic Socialist society, because everyone has equal power and equal say, there are no "rulers" in the classic sense. Everyone's a ruler, and therefore no-one is. ... My train of thought has just derailed, careened into a ravine, and exploded. sweatdrop well, that's not to say that their couldn't be a small Government; perhaps a Chief or a President, and maybe also a small Parliament and/or Court. but in such systems these become irrelevant and are kept small if kept at all. further, they usually don't do much unless nessesary. in a proper Anarcho-Commune, the Chief serves much the same purpose as the President of the U.S.-- he is the Diplomat and the War Commander. however, his council is often taken when the People don't want to make a big decision, or when there is a dispute. but yes, it is completely possible for a society as a whole to function without a central leader. my own parents (as well as almost everyone I talk to) would disagree, but for all the faith they have in large super-power-nation democracy they have (ironic, given it doesn't work), they have no trust in smaler self-contained democracies or Self-Governed Communes.
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:31 pm
Whatever system you talk about, there will always be exploits and dangers...
That's part of the reason we are where we are at today...
The system you talk of will always have the danger of charismatic individuals rising up for whatever reason, and a small majority joining their cause with this charismatic soul, leading to a majority against a minority. Even in the most well meaning scenario.
In the end people take sides, the smaller groups of people join with others of like minds and then you eventually have what we have now again. It's not anything you can ever stop from happening, because the way of things is, when you start something it will either grow or die...
The only way around that is to have a one world government, in which the government itself is only there to be sure that each area concerns itself with itself. A system to be sure that the charismatic folks who believe they have a better way, or who just want more for themselves stay silent... but you see how that would get out of hand pretty quick....
Yet, that is what we are moving towards right now. We are a world of essentially 4 factions, with the rest of the populous riding along. Yes, I agree it's a problem, but if we went to the anarchy you talk about, we would work ourselves back here eventually.
Now, as for the major players in the world government arena...It would pretty much be only 2 factions if some certain governments would get their heads out of their butts and deal with the 1, but then 2 factions would be joined as one, and one would be eliminated, thus starting a war between them and the 4th.... which actually sounds mighty like a couple prophesies I know.... now I am curious to see it play out....
As for me, I don't believe your system would work like you think it would, but that doesn't mean that I have faith in the system we have either.
Technically, in the USA, our system could possibly be made substantially better if we eliminated allot of the authority the president has, such as the ability to declare war with no real support, or to overturn voted measures in place by executive decision. Then by returning the power that the states were originally supposed to control back to the states, plus some. And finally, by eliminating corporate influence altogether from the government.
A significant pay cut to all representative positions would also help by making the positions less desirable to those who are in it for the money, but a significant amount of those would be out the door when you outlawed corporate influence.
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Chieftain Twilight Captain
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:37 pm
but how are we gonna cut out the corporate influence of a system that exists because of corporations?
the only way to do that is to revolt en masse. and that means revolution and leads to either a.) seccession or b.) regimes. the former won't succeed against such a large enemy, and the latter only results in a shifting of power from one dictator to the next. and in either case there is only warfare and strife and suffering.
iii-_- all in all, I don't see how my philosophies stand a chance, because the super-power nations won't allow them to just exist. but taking the super-power nations out is too huge an ordeal.
I still believe that these systems I talk about would work... if the political/economic environment were different. and yeh, maybe they'd go right back to hear, but if that cycle continued over and over than at least it wouldn't ever get any worse than this.
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Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:38 pm
It doesn't exist because of corporations, that is something that has worked it's way in over time. The original fundamental structure of our Government was built in such a way as to try and separate the government completely from corporate influence, before there were even corporations as we know them now. Much of what goes on on Capitol Hill is unconstitutional, and illegal, but that is because our government has too much power.
What should be done is a revolution back to the fundamentalist structure of the constitution. A movement to eliminate all of the illegal activities our congress participates in, and remove any fundamentally unconstitutional amendments and practices. Then the Judicial System and The Executive Branch need a major overhaul...restructuring, and limiting of how far they can change the issues we vote on, and how much law they can institute without the Legislature.
The legislature was implemented to be the main lawmaking authority, but over the years, the Judicial system has been thrust into that position. The legislative branch has become a mockery of what it should be, and it has been stepping onto the executive branch's territory. The excutive branch has become a mostly diplomatic seat, and when it does step into it's original territory, it seems to be in an abusive way. It's all effed up, but it actually is a good system when held in check.
What's happening to us happened to Rome. The system instituted some major glory days. It gave it's implementers a rise to success, but the people who benefited from the system grew complacent, figuring the system would take care of itself. Then they realized their folly too late to do anything about it. Would they have done anything if they had noticed the power-hungry madmen that had risen to power sooner. I am starting to think the answer is 'No'....
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Chieftain Twilight Captain
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:10 pm
back in the feudal era, the Guilds were in control of most of the Commerce. Wealthy Families formed Alliances and something similar to Unions, and Peasants and the Wealthy alike could send their children to live and work in the Guilds to become Masters of some Trade or Art.
now, some of the Merchants who realized that they could make better money on their own without paying dues and membership fees and taxes to the Guilds decided they were gonna get around this. they sold far and wide, essentially avoiding taxes and fees. this tactic eventually became so widespread that the results of it's practice were seen and liked. it became the standard Economic System.
what are the corporations? they are privately owned large businesses that sell their goods and services globally. it's the same thing the merchants who invented capitalism did. and actually, it isn't a far cry from the Guilds before them. the socialist-capitalist model would be the same as the feudal Guilds.
so, to be fair, I guess I have to conceade the point that economics will always lead right back to the same thing... you are right about that. I guess that's what upsets me the most... it's such an unstoppable monster....
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Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:02 pm
Yeah, that's why I conceded long ago that we need to tame the wild beast....
It's hard work to bring an animal under control, and it's usually dangerous too... but it can be done... but it takes will-power and constant attention from the point you decide to do so to the day that animal dies to be sure that it doesn't go feral again.
It's the same with government and economics, and society is like a child who grows overconfident with the taming of their animal. We get tired of watching it, and taking care of it, so it begins to go feral on us again. Then we wonder why.
Any system that benefits us all is going to take allot more work than the systems that benefit a few, because it will take more people being involved in the monitoring of how far the system can go, and it will take allot of work to be sure that the system doesn't gain too much momentum.
We at least understand that the system is ailing and broken.... Let's face it, most people don't want to take the time to understand this stuff, and they brag that they failed the classes in school. They just want to put in their 40, have the weekend off for bar hopping, or lawn-mowing, or whatever mundane thing whets their whistle, and then blame somebody else when things aren't the way they like... And that my friend is why things are is the state they are in now.... and, That's what upsets me the most.
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Chieftain Twilight Captain
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Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:04 pm
your understanding of economics is incredible. I wish I could even comprehend all the intricacies behind it. I'll get around to learning eventually, but of course I must prioritize.
I cannot help but feel very... opposed to regulations, "taming", or authoritarianism of any kind... it's in my nature to rebel against limits and expectations. Liberty is one of the most imortant Values to me.
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