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 Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:39 am
I encountered a person who used this logic; Premise 1: The wages of sin is eternal torment in hell. Premise 2: Jesus paid the wages of sin. Conclusion: Jesus suffers eternal torment in hell. To prove that there is no Hell. There is something wrong about the premises and the conclusions but I can't make out what. Care to help? smile Garland-Green Because of Jesus nature (Colossians 1:16-17) it was not necessary for Him go to an eternal Hell to pay for our sins. If Jesus was anyone else than who He was it could not have been paid in full on the cross. He experience both torment and separation from God (Matthew 27:46) on the cross to such an extent that it satisfied justice. Apparently this is special pleading? Quote: In which case he did not pay the wages of sin but instead endured a lesser punishment. You can't have it both ways. He either did or didn't, and special pleading is a logical fallacy. If he did not actually pay the wages of sin, then his death was unnecessary or failed to save anyone. I suppose it comes from the persons understanding of the wages of sin being death (Romans 6:23)? What is your thoughts? Some verses: 1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, Colossians 2:14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. Isaiah 53:4 Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted. Daniel 12:2 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:08 pm
Okay, so I've skimmed briefly on some statements made but not enough to let it sink because if I do, my train of thought me be lost and I may not be able to explain myself well lol.
So based on those 2 premises, I would say that the debt that was paid was Jesus' sacrifice of His life on the cross. He doesn't need to suffer hell. He was sinless. Blameless. A perfect lamb without spot or blemish. He was the sacrifice that paid the wages of sin. All of God's wrath was basically poured out on His Son..in our place. So that we don't have to pay the debt that we owe for our sins [when we confess and repent and believe that Jesus died, rose again, and is alive and seated at the right hand of God] making intercession on our behalf.
" God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."
Acts 2:31-32
Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. 1Peter 3:18-20
Sorry for this being kind of a choppy reply. sweatdrop
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:21 pm
It sounds like you are arguing a losing battle Garland with someone who doesn't have any basic faith whatsoever... you know what they say about spiritual things...
1 Corinthians 2:13,14
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The first issue is with premise 1.
The bible doesn't say that the wages of sin is eternal torment in hell - but that the wages of sin is death. The notion of "eternal torment in hell" is, for want of a better term, "popular theology" but it is not biblical.
The second issue is with his ill-gained conclusion.
The bible doesn't say that Jesus would suffer eternal torment in hell to pay for our sins. His death on the cross would be sufficient.
Hebrews 10:10-14 says "And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by a single offering He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."
1 Peter 1:18-21 "18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God."
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Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:37 pm
for the sake of context this is the original (or thereabouts) post. Original PostPremise 1 didn't belong to the other person, it is yours. Garland-Green I suppose it comes from the persons understanding of the wages of sin being death (Romans 6:23)? What is your thoughts? Eternal life is eternal life whether it's in heaven or an eternally burning hell. There's nothing at all wrong with such a person's understanding... that's what the bible says.
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Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:20 am
jack0076970 for the sake of context this is the original (or thereabouts) post. Original PostPremise 1 didn't belong to the other person, it is yours. Garland-Green I suppose it comes from the persons understanding of the wages of sin being death (Romans 6:23)? What is your thoughts? Eternal life is eternal life whether it's in heaven or an eternally burning hell. There's nothing at all wrong with such a person's understanding... that's what the bible says. It was not at all the original problem or question if you will that I thought it was and I spent more time on it than I normally would if I had known the purpose of the question. The purpose of it as I perceive it now was not getting answers but setting up a trap.The way the person did it is dishonest because I did not know where they were going. If you debate someone and you are not looking to entrap them it is only fair that you agree on what is the topic of debate. Unless you are just making a point or a statement for your own sake and you are not really interested in what the other person has to say or to accurately represent what they believe. I didn't intend for it to be a singular statement weighing heavier than other Scripture in the matter of doctrine. Premise 1 does belong to me, but I did not intent for it to be premise 1. Thank you for your answers and your assistance. I agree to what you said when you said the cross is sufficient. I would argue however that there is a strong case for eternal conscious torment in the Bible and that you can't take verses such as 'The wages of sin is Death' (Romans 6:23), without considering verses such as 'just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment' (Hebrews 9:27). If death is all that it is paid with and all that is required then why is there a judgement after it? What is the purpose of this judgement? More verses dealing with eternal torment: Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."” Matt. 8:12, "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell." Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." What is the purpose of an eternal fire where people are thrown into if not for eternal punishment? If the fire consumed them, then a temporal fire would do. Why is it called eternal punishment if it is finite? You could argue that there are verses that say the damned with be destroyed in Hell; Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. But you would have to infer that destroy means obliteration or extinction and that it is not for the duration of eternity but for a limited time. There is argument for it being translated to the wrong English word from Greek: apollumi
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Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:43 am
jack0076970 for the sake of context this is the original (or thereabouts) post. Original PostPremise 1 didn't belong to the other person, it is yours. Garland-Green I suppose it comes from the persons understanding of the wages of sin being death (Romans 6:23)? What is your thoughts? Eternal life is eternal life whether it's in heaven or an eternally burning hell. There's nothing at all wrong with such a person's understanding... that's what the bible says. What about verses saying: John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; John 6:47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. I think the problem here is that when we think of death we think of it only as organ failure and going into the grave, but Adam lived 930 years after God pronounced him dead. Genesis 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." Likewise the problem we have with life is thinking existing is the same as life. Luke 16:23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
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Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:57 am
Spirit Reborn Okay, so I've skimmed briefly on some statements made but not enough to let it sink because if I do, my train of thought me be lost and I may not be able to explain myself well lol. So based on those 2 premises, I would say that the debt that was paid was Jesus' sacrifice of His life on the cross. He doesn't need to suffer hell. He was sinless. Blameless. A perfect lamb without spot or blemish. He was the sacrifice that paid the wages of sin. All of God's wrath was basically poured out on His Son..in our place. So that we don't have to pay the debt that we owe for our sins [when we confess and repent and believe that Jesus died, rose again, and is alive and seated at the right hand of God] making intercession on our behalf. " God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."
Acts 2:31-32
Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. 1Peter 3:18-20
Sorry for this being kind of a choppy reply. sweatdrop Thank you for your response. I think like you have pointed to the essentials and that your reply is a good one. He was perfect, spotless and holy. His blood was sufficient to pay for any and all consequences of sin (Hebrews 9:22, Ephesians 1:7). The conclusion that He had to pay for eternal damnation with eternal damnation is a conclusion forced on the text. Colossians 1:19-20 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
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Posted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:28 am
Thankyou for your thoughts & questions - apologies for my apparently delay... you know how life gets... besides prayerfully needing to consider this study.
Hebrews 9:27 is a great text Garland
-27- And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, (and verse) -28- So Christ was offered once to bear The sins of many to those who eagerly wait for him he will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Simply put, the death mentioned is the natural death that all not alive at Jesus second coming will meet with… this also applies for John 6:47,11:25,17:3 – also God didn’t pronounce Adam dead, he said he would die
As for the Judgement – there is more than one but within the context of Hebrews 9:27 it takes place at the second coming of Christ (Matthew 24, 1 Thessalonians 4/5 etc) – resulting in one of two resurrections v29 either side of the 1000 years of Revelation 20:4-6
-21- "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. -22- "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, -23- "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. -24- "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. -25- "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. -26- "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, -27- "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. -28- "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice -29- "and come forth; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. -30- "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
I appreciate that Matthew 25:41 might lead one to an idea of an eternal punishment
“Then He will say to those on His left hand, “Depart from Me you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” Matthew 25:41
And to make matters worse
“…and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” Revelation 20:9,10
The idea of an eternity of suffering in hellfire has been used and abused for centuries from the pulpit (and evidently for millennia given your reference to early Christian beliefs) to drive people to God out of fear and it should be noted rob them of their money. Bible believing Christians are still today earnestly preaching the same message. God’s methods are a little different.
Jeremiah 31:3 says “The LORD has appeared of old to me, saying: “Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.” And in 2Timothy 1:7 Paul says that “God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.”
The bible uses “forever” over 50 times relating to things that have already finished.
As in Matthew 25:41, Sodom & Gomorrah likewise suffered destruction by eternal fire
“…as Sodom and Gomorrah, and The cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” Jude 7
“…and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;” 2 Peter 2:6
The eternal nature of the fire meant that it could not be extinguished until it had served its purpose and its results were irreversible and consequences eternal. It is obviously not burning today.
So what about this case? Is it forever forever? What does the bible actually say?
The apollumi argument is duly noted but for the sake of clarity there is enough biblical context for a clear understanding.
Eternal Life or Death? (once again)
Romans 6:23. "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
James 1:15 "Sin, when it is full-grown brings forth death."
John 3:16 "God ... gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Revelation 21:8 says that "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
The Bible says the wicked suffer "death" (Romans 6:23)
will suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30)
"shall perish" (Psalms 37:20)
will "burn" up (Malachi 4:1)
"shall be destroyed together" (Psalms 37:3 cool
will "consume away" (Psalms 37:20)
"shall be cut off" (Psalms 37:9)
"shall be slain" (Psalms 62:3)
God will "destroy" them (Psalms 145:20), and
"fire shall devour them" (Psalms 21:9).
The bible doesn’t give any room the suggestion that an eternity of separation from God is a death-like equivalent as might be given to propose.
Does justice require eternal torment?
The notion that God punishes sinners with an eternity of torment in fire is a contrary to both His nature and His own concept of justice that He declares in His own words.
Regarding their (the wicked) destruction
"As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11.
"For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Luke 9:56.
"For the Lord shall rise up ... that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act." Isaiah 28:21.
Sinners’ choices will result in hellfire, yes, but man’s confused vision of God’s justice would have the sinners then burn for all eternity. This is a perversion of God’s justice and His character.
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12.
"And then he shall reward every man according to his works." Matthew 16:27.
"That servant, which knew his lord's will, and ... neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." Luke 12:47, 48.
The bible doesn’t say how long people will suffer but what it does say is that it will be fair and according to their works.
As a side note something you mentioned...
“It is also true that God does not punish everyone the same in Hell (Luke 12:47-48.). Gehenna consists of torment as Jesus said, “there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Matt 13:49-50). Jesus described torment as the place where a person will thirst in darkness and yet be able to see and still have memories (Luke 16:19-31).”
Use of Luke 12 in this context doesn’t work out – in verse 24 the Rich Man declares that he is “tormented in this flame” – there is no difference in this parable to Matthew’s description.
Does the fire go out or will it burn forever?
"Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47:14.
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth." "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:1, 4.
“For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more but the meek shall inherit the earth, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.” Psalm 37:10,11
What will be left of the wicked?
"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1, 3.
Can their end be any clearer?
Life beyond hellfire for those who choose life.
"He will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9.
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." Isaiah 65:17.
"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain." Revelation 21:3, 4.
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