new one--experiencing some upheaval

[shatterspect]

All right, first post. 5:45 in the morning. Been up all night. No medication, yet. I should call and ask if I should take it...

Basically, I just had a really bad experience on one of the psychic development lists I subscribed to. I subscribed to it because I had been relating my experiences in a couple of different religious boards related to "dark" spirituality, and basically no one responded. That's been the pattern over years. No one responds, because no one can relate.

So I subscribed to a good number of these boards, but focused in on one. I thoroughly introduced myself, and was basically immediately hit with "you have spirit attachments." As in, "you have spirit attachments and they're obviously there nonconsentually and they're taking away your energy and your free will and you need to get rid of them."

I find that people who think they're psychic tend to think they know you better than you know yourself, in addition to supposedly knowing what you should do with your life...

Then later, I get an email from the list owner saying that I "have a demon" and that before I write back to the list, I need to "get rid of my demon" and this is all bullshit, you know...

But I know that if I actually did obey this person and even assented to try to "get rid of my demon", this would have deleterious effects on my health. It's like assenting to try and get rid of one's homosexuality. She was referring to an entity that I've lived with in my mind for the past...eight years?

If you didn't read my introduction in the introductory thread, I'm what's called "multiple" in community lingo. I don't necessarily have Dissociative Identity Disorder--don't fit the profile--though I likely qualify for Dissociative Disorder: Not Otherwise Specified. I haven't lost time in years, and I don't have memory lapses; but I do have several different personality states.

Me and "my demon" (I call him by the name of Blaze) have a good deal of history. I'm not going to reject such an important part of my mind because someone I don't know freaks out about it, or because she won't let me into her little coterie unless I do what she says.

Anyway, I was talking about this someplace else with people I know from several years ago, we got into my history; and basically now, because of repeated failures of so-called "psychics" to accurately recognize any part of me, I'm questioning whether psychic ability actually exists at all.

On rare occasions, something does seem to be going on--like my mom waking up in the middle of the night and knowing someone's died, then getting a call next day that says a friend's father died in the night. Or my great-grandmother predicting that the phone would ring and who it was for, and both of those predictions being accurate. But everyone outside of my family who has tried to read me has basically come up with garbage. Granted that they were all in training. Still garbage. Harmful, paranoid garbage, at that.

Of course the readers would tell me I'm "highly psychic"--they want to 1) flatter me, and 2) get me to pay for classes. Of course books on psychic development say that "everyone's psychic"--it expands their target demographic, and gets people to buy their books. If the bottom line is money, then that's just really unethical.

If I'm extrapolating out from my experiences with others that psychic ability doesn't exist, then this implies that my own possible psychic ability also does not exist. This puts me on uncertain ground; as, as I said in my introduction, I have been and tend to be a very spiritual person. I feel there is some subjective value to certain things like listening to what one's "intuition" is saying, listening to one's inner voices, and doing functional meditations.

Right now I have two New Age beliefs that I retain:

1) I chose this life

2) I'm here to help this world

But I mean, this last encounter has really just mangled the entire belief system underlying this, for me. I choose to believe that I chose this life because it keeps me from falling into anger at this world and at my circumstances. I choose to believe that I'm here to help other beings because it gives me a sense of purpose in my life. But the inspiration for this was through something which I at the time took to be a spirit communication. If spirit communications don't exist, then it kind of takes the extra-normal validity out of my so-called "mission" (see below). It means that I would have to do my mission without thinking of any sense of possible reward.

Even if it wasn't real, would I still get a sense of accomplishment knowing that I used this life to further understanding and peace? If I died and there was no more? Would this life have been wasted?

--shatter
end: May 12, 2006; 6:45 AM  

[shatterspect]

For the impatient I will attempt to shorten this...

shatterspect

Basically, I just had a really bad experience on one of the psychic development lists I subscribed to.

Anyway, I was talking about this someplace else with people I know from several years ago, we got into my history; and basically now, because of repeated failures of so-called "psychics" to accurately recognize any part of me, I'm questioning whether psychic ability actually exists at all.

If I'm extrapolating out from my experiences with others that psychic ability doesn't exist, then this implies that my own possible psychic ability also does not exist. This puts me on uncertain ground; as, as I said in my introduction, I have been and tend to be a very spiritual person.

Right now I have two New Age beliefs that I retain:

1) I chose this life

2) I'm here to help this world

But I mean, this last encounter has really just mangled the entire belief system underlying this, for me. I choose to believe that I'm here to help other beings because it gives me a sense of purpose in my life.

If spirit communications don't exist, then it kind of takes the extra-normal validity out of my so-called "mission" (see below). It means that I would have to do my mission without thinking of any sense of possible reward.

Even if it wasn't real, would I still get a sense of accomplishment knowing that I used this life to further understanding and peace? If I died and there was no more? Would this life have been wasted?

--shatter
end: May 12, 2006; 6:45 AM

 

[Sanguvixen]

The point of this is?

 

[Redem]

Sanguvixen

The point of this is?

A very spiritual person struggling with a newly non-spiritual belief system, and seeking to talk about it with a group of non-spiritual people, I presume.  

[iviary]

I can feel for you on some level.
I have never seen a doctor about my problem, but it's certainly there. Thankfully, not very often anymore.
There's a voice in my head that's been there for as long as I can remember.
It stopped constantly being there at some point in elementary or middle school. It did show up once this year, inciting something of a panic attack, however.
These auditory hallucinations are anything but pleasant; the voice is malicious, and while it doesn't tell me to "do things", it berates me, points out all my flaws and my mistakes, and robs me of my self-esteem.

I talked to a very spiritual (but not religious) art teacher about it. Turns out, she has the same problem (and not so comforting was the fact she spent 3 months in an insane asylum for it..), and offered some techniques for dealing with the voice. While her ideas were based on the assumption that evil spirits cause the voice(s) (whereas, I'm quite certain it's some form of misfiring in my brain), her ideas still work to some level. Imagining surrounding myself with purple fire and (yeah, I laughed too) letting my {{cough}} "Inner-Jesus" shine down on me from above my head, to ward of the "spirits" does help on some level. It's not that I really feel I'm warding off evil spirits; rather, I'm convincing myself that I can get rid of the problem, or at least ignore it.

I can absolutely understand why something like this would convince many people that there are spirits, etc. It would seem that this cannot be something produced by myself. And yet, I believe it is.

As for doing your "mission" without any reward.. Well, welcome to the joys of being an agnostic/atheist/nontheist humanist.

"Secular humanists do not rely upon gods or other supernatural forces to solve their problems or provide guidance for their conduct. They rely instead upon the application of reason, the lessons of history, and personal experience to form an ethical/moral foundation and to create meaning in life. It is a philosophy and world view which centers upon human concerns and employs rational and scientific methods to address the wide range of issues important to us all. While secular humanism is at odds with faith-based religious systems on many issues, it is dedicated to the fulfillment of the individual and humankind in general."

Check it out: http://www.secularhumanism.org/
If you lose your faith, this just might do the trick.
You can still fulfill your "mission", without a God for whom to do it.
Do it for the sake of mankind to come after you.
Do it for your own enjoyment.
Do it because it's the morally right thing to do, for you, based upon your worries here.  

[DivideByZero14]

OK, why do people need meaning for their lives?

You, personally, are a hunk of proteins, hydrocarbons, water, and a generous scoopful of other chemicals that is organized in such a manner as to obtain and use energy for the end purpose of organizing more matter in a similar pattern. Why can't your end be merely to aid the spread of humanity? Either raise children, or work to help society (in turn, leading to the capacity to raise more children), or research the world around us (find the secrets of how to fit in more children).

The only missions are self-assigned. And that's cool; it's called setting goals. But why does anyone get the idea that there is a "purpose" or a "meaning" to anything? Those are both spurious human notions that we would try to use to frame our empirical reality. What happens, happens. If you end up on the streets with no money, nobody and nothing wanted that--it's most likely your own fault. Do whatever you want, make your own goals, have your own meanings and mission, but please stop trying to say that these were forced upon you, that anyone else but yourself had any part in them.

Oh, and, happy Mothers' Day!  

[shatterspect]

DivideByZero14

Why can't your end be merely to aid the spread of humanity? Either raise children, or work to help society (in turn, leading to the capacity to raise more children), or research the world around us (find the secrets of how to fit in more children).

What, "go forth and multiply"? I don't live by that. Broadly speaking, I'm not a Bible-following theist. I don't believe that the ultimate goal of my life is to reproduce. This may be from years of conditioning, thinking that because I thought I was lesbian I would not have children. This is not to say I'm not thinking *now* about having children, but I don't think that there is any biological imperative for me to reproduce.

DivideByZero14

The only missions are self-assigned.

Yes, I know this. Any cursory reading of Nietzsche will give this.

DividebyZero14

But why does anyone get the idea that there is a "purpose" or a "meaning" to anything?

Is this something you gleaned from my reading, or is it just a question that came up in relation to it? I don't recall saying there is a purpose or a meaning.

DivideByZero14

If you end up on the streets with no money, nobody and nothing wanted that--it's most likely your own fault.

Doesn't appear to me that you've taken any social psychology or sociology classes--or economics, for that matter.

DivideByZero14

Do whatever you want, make your own goals, have your own meanings and mission, but please stop trying to say that these were forced upon you, that anyone else but yourself had any part in them.

And where did I say this? Do you mean "you" to specifically refer to me, or is it a general "you"? If it is a "you" that is meant specifically to refer to me, the closest thing I can see to something even implying this is in the below:

shatterspect

But the inspiration for this was through something which I at the time took to be a spirit communication. If spirit communications don't exist, then it kind of takes the extra-normal validity out of my so-called "mission" (see below).

The...how should I put this...I would say "forces" but that would be unnecessarily confusing...the group of "energies" (vague, but perhaps I can't put this any better into English) that I'm in contact with would never "force" me to do anything.

My growth or lack of growth is my choice. Always has been, always will be. Suffering exists; we can either take those experiences and learn from them, or we can repeat the same mistakes over and over again. The majority of my self-defined "mission" is to use the experiences of this life in order to gain the particular wisdom of this life. Once I gain that wisdom, I may be able to see clearly enough through the lens of this life, in order to assist others who are struggling in their own lives.

That's not to say that I'll just freely step into their lives and tell them what to do. No; that would be a violation of my respect for them and their capacity for making their own decisions. It would also point out a weakness in me; most people who try to tell others how to live their lives are compensating for lack of control in their own.

But if others ask, I may be able to attempt to help, even if that "help" is flawed. I'm a flawed being; I'm not going to be able to give out perfect readings of "this is what you should do with your life". I can only advise from my position, as best I know how. That's it. And I may be wrong; but anyone coming to me for help should know that I could be wrong. It is not my place to take responsibility for someone's life away from them.

Getting back to your statement. My mission was *inspired by* a spirit communication. It was not *dictated by* a spirit communication. I'm not Moses and I don't obey Jesus or whatever god/desses you're thinking of. This life is entirely MINE. And I will run it that way.  

[shatterspect]

Hi iviary...

Thanks for your post. I know it took some level of guts to come out and say what you did. So; thank you. I really get concerned when I happen to be a member of groups where everyone is afraid of talking about something that's not of that group's status quo. In the past I've been the person who has ignored the game and made change...and got attacked for it, shunned for it, etc. It's good that in this group one can still feel open enough to really...speak.

iviary

These auditory hallucinations are anything but pleasant; the voice is malicious, and while it doesn't tell me to "do things", it berates me, points out all my flaws and my mistakes, and robs me of my self-esteem.

This sounds very hard to deal with. I hope you have someone with whom you can talk about this. Like the art teacher you mention...In my case I don't have auditory hallucinations. I do have a condition which can cause them, but thankfully, they're rare and often easily pointed out as disagreeing with objective reality. smile

I do have olfactory hallucinations, though--at least one of which has been of sulfur (which people often take to be a sign of a demon). So I have some experience with this. The voices I experience are more internal voices, like one would recognize if they were talking to themselves in their mind. Only some of them don't seem to come from "me", and the person "I" am can and does change. At this point it's not always entirely like I can "hear" them. I'm on two medications at this point, and they pretty much cut down on--what happens when one personality wants to interact with the others. I usually don't get that now unless it's in dreams, or unless I consciously enable it.

I'm still a little scared of talking to them...it's quite common that they'll come up in my day-to-day personality, or that I'll wear specific items for each of them...not so much designating which one is coming forward at the time...I don't put that much thought into it. It's more just a case of "who wanted to wear what for today."

Like I said, I've been dealing with this for at least four years...and I'm still a bit scared of talking to them. It basically makes me feel crazy, even though now I know that there are other cultures in which this would be totally permissible and even encouraged.

I wouldn't be too scared of "insane asylums"...not too scared. The thing about it is that one needs to go to a good one, and not one where they just try and milk one's medical insurance. There's a lot of stigma attached to it, but that's because people don't understand mental illness, por lo general (in general). I more often hear them referred to as "inpatient facilities", whereas when one sees a psychiatrist on a regular basis, one is contacting "outpatient facilities".

A person generally only goes to an inpatient facility if they're in danger of harming themselves or others, or if they request it; or if they are a minor or deemed incapable of making the decision and are then forced there by police, family or a significant other (I know someone who went through this recently). The point of being in an inpatient facility is to give a person time to get "stabilized", to get them through whatever time they're going through that is so hard, they can't take care of themselves.

Then there is all the idiocy around second amendment (?) rights in some states, where a person who has been in an inpatient facility isn't allowed to buy or possess a gun--regardless of the fact that there are a lot of people who are *more* mentally unstable, who have problems out of control and aren't even attempting to work on them--who can get guns... The stigma hits people who choose to work on their problems via psychiatry, and that's one of the major issues that I have with people stigmatizing the mentally ill. The stigma keeps people who need the help from accessing the help. It also leads to poor psychiatrists--people who can't see their clients as human--but that's a topic for another day.

iviary

Imagining surrounding myself with purple fire and (yeah, I laughed too) letting my {{cough}} "Inner-Jesus" shine down on me from above my head, to ward of the "spirits" does help on some level. It's not that I really feel I'm warding off evil spirits; rather, I'm convincing myself that I can get rid of the problem, or at least ignore it.

Hmm. What I've used is a brilliant white light issuing from the center of my chest and expanding outward to fill my body and burn away anything harmful. (Be careful if you use this one, though, for its effects on the subconscious...I've depended on this visualization for years, and right now I have an alternate identity that personifies this light; my destroying "angel"--and in this, I take the term "angel" figuratively, not literally; to designate simply that he is essentially holy and not [as people have tried to tell me, and as he himself has thought] "evil".)

This is on the level of what I was speaking of as "functional meditation". I usually don't do it unless my back's up against the wall, but with the intent of clearing thoughts that don't help me that are gunking up my mind...it does help. I also have at least one experience where I've done this kind of thought-work and had it feed back through someone else (my imagining a bubble shield to protect someone close to me and hearing them say--without my having told them I did anything--that they felt like they were "trapped in a bubble.")

Back when I was still believing the more popular local psychic academy had anything behind it, I did use the tool that they suggested, of envisioning my own God. It took time and work--a lot of work--but I do now have a God concept that I can actually capitalize without quotation marks, and that I can visualize without hating. (As the "God" of the Bible is not my God, I refer to him as "God" [as though I recognized him as mine] only sardonically.) Perhaps even now, I don't think that skill, or gnosis, should be thrown out.

It's perhaps a bit funny to say that I've had some form of gnosis and am yet agnostic. smile It's just because I don't trust my perceptions enough to make the jump and say, "yes, this literally exists"--because there's no way I can know that. Generally speaking, subjective reality has little bearing on the objective, and I believe that the subjective is truly all we can know.

"Inner Jesus"...why Jesus? Why not Krishna or someone? wink (I know why it was Jesus, don't worry...it's probably because he's popular and the whole casting out of legion and whatever else is in the Bible that I don't know.)

iviary

As for doing your "mission" without any reward.. Well, welcome to the joys of being an agnostic/atheist/nontheist humanist.

It's kind of funny, the quote that you gave...as I essentially agree with it, but am still, at this point...eh, undecided about the entire "god" issue. Might be nice if such a thing existed, but as I see it now, it's not necessary for me to do my work. Generally speaking as well, my dealings are with spirits and/or the hidden aspects of mind; not gods. You said this:

iviary

You can still fulfill your "mission", without a God for whom to do it.

I don't believe I'm doing what I'm doing for the sake of my God. Personally, I'm not even sure that my God is one being; rather, scattered over countless incarnations. If/when I ever do pray, it is at this point to anyone in my vicinity who is listening. If I spoke to my God, it would be shorthand for speaking to all spirits.

So actually, if I were to follow this line of logic through...anything I did which would be for the sake of any other being, or for the sake of myself--but more particularly for the greater good--would also be for the sake of my God. I don't believe this God, as it is currently conceptualized, can act on its own. While it may contain sentience as a set...what I'm trying to say is that it isn't a being as we most often refer to beings in this life. I would say it was similar to the concept of Gaia (the earth mother), in reference to all of us being part of it; but then people--any time people try and put a name to the Divine, they tend to personify it and in putting a face to it, they get away from its actual essence.

It's like, why would Gaia be some caring, loving, humanlike woman who apparently conforms to near-present-day standards of womanhood? That doesn't make sense. More than that, it's egocentric--it's projecting the Divine as us--and not us in an abstract sense, but us in a limited "I am a human/woman/etc. sense--confined to someone's identity. Can we only contact the Divine by making it like us?

I started to go off on some tangent after I wrote this last part; and right now I can't find the point buried in all those words. I've been awake too long, and my mind isn't working as well as it could. Maybe I can conceptualize what I'm thinking of better after sleep.  

[iviary]

shatterspect

The voices I experience are more internal voices, like one would recognize if they were talking to themselves in their mind. Only some of them don't seem to come from "me", and the person "I" am can and does change. At this point it's not always entirely like I can "hear" them.

My auditory hallucinations never come from outside myself; they never seem to be coming from people near me or anything. They're always just battering away at the inside of my head. Heh. When I was younger, I used to be frightened that it was how others heard me (as it often mocked what I said; particularly mean things), or that it was my future self if I kept on the same track of correcting people incessantly. Perhaps that's why the voice has mostly gone away; I've changed my habits, and my "conscience" doesn't feel the need to correct me any longer.

shatterspect

I'm still a little scared of talking to them...

In english a few weeks ago, in preparation for our AP Test, our teacher mentioned that our "inner critic" might show up for the test. That prospect really frightened me; after all, it does seem to show up more often in stressful situations. She suggested we visualize that inner critic in order to disarm it. I rather think that would make it worse; I don't want to imagine what the owner of the voice looks like, frankly. I imagine she wasn't speaking literally of voices in our heads. If she were, I'd definitely have some company, as about half the class raised their hands when she asked if we had that inner voice. Egh. I thought about talking to her after class, about how that suggestion might not be beneficial, especially for those that literally have that voice. However, I'm not that close with her, and didn't really feel like discussing the matter of my slight imbalance with her. After all, there is that stigma you mentioned.

shatterspect

It basically makes me feel crazy, even though now I know that there are other cultures in which this would be totally permissible and even encouraged.

Even at another age, it would be more acceptable. Many childhood imaginary friends can be attributed to auditory hallucinations, not just simple imagination. I never had an imaginary friend, but have always had this nasty voice. Even as a child, I knew not to discuss it with other people openly. I knew it wasn't considered "normal". {kicks society}

shatterspect

Hmm. What I've used is a brilliant white light issuing from the center of my chest and expanding outward to fill my body and burn away anything harmful.

That's basically how the "inner jesus" bit works. I essentially imagine a great light shining from above my head, and filling my body from my head to my feet. So, essentially the same, but with a name that doesn't actually apply to my beliefs. ;]
What I generally try first, though, is just "playing" a bunch of fiddle tunes in my head as loudly as I can, to drown it out.

shatterspect

It's kind of funny, the quote that you gave...as I essentially agree with it, but am still, at this point...eh, undecided about the entire "god" issue. Might be nice if such a thing existed, but as I see it now, it's not necessary for me to do my work.

I consider myself agnostic with atheistic leanings. I do have some beliefs that aren't exactly kosher for either the religious or atheistic realms.
I believe we are {literally} part of a much much bigger organism. And, as the infinitesimally small organisms inside me have no clue of their "greater purpose" in forming the larger structure, me, I can't grasp what role I play in the bigger picture. Nor is it important in the least to know. I'll just go about my business, thank you.

shatterspect

I don't believe I'm doing what I'm doing for the sake of my God. Personally, I'm not even sure that my God is one being; rather, scattered over countless incarnations. If/when I ever do pray, it is at this point to anyone in my vicinity who is listening. If I spoke to my God, it would be shorthand for speaking to all spirits.

So actually, if I were to follow this line of logic through...anything I did which would be for the sake of any other being, or for the sake of myself--but more particularly for the greater good--would also be for the sake of my God. I don't believe this God, as it is currently conceptualized, can act on its own. While it may contain sentience as a set...what I'm trying to say is that it isn't a being as we most often refer to beings in this life. I would say it was similar to the concept of Gaia (the earth mother), in reference to all of us being part of it; but then people--any time people try and put a name to the Divine, they tend to personify it and in putting a face to it, they get away from its actual essence.

Heh. I think you'd really hit it off with my art teacher. She has some beliefs that are way out there. I can safely say they're even less mainstream than yours, at least in this culture. Ah hell, in any culture. She pulls from every religion to form her beliefs. :] She can't grasp at all how I'm mostly atheist.  

[Dathu]

Hmm, another girl with a guy avi. So many of you. And a possible lesbian (a bonus in my book).

Now for the serious. I tend to be simple in my views, so this'll be quick. I don't believe in psychics nor in psychic abilities. I just don't think there is enough believable evidence. I don't believe in any form of after life. And I don't believe in a universal purpose/meaning to life. I think each person's "drive" to live is as unique and perosnal as their memories. I personally feel the reason for living is to be happy. If helping people makes you happy then do it, and do it with a passion. I think in the end, all you really have is your memories, so why not make'em good ones.

= my two cents. mrgreen