Does the Self exist?

[Lesilrok]

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[iviary]

This question seems to work well with my personal beliefs. I believe we're part of something vastly enormous; that there are nearly infinite selves {organisms, that is} within each of us, just as each of us in an infinitesimal portion of some much much larger organism. Thus there literally is "something greater" out there. But, as you don't give a damn about that one Bacterium named Pat swimmin' around in your left kidney, whatever we are part of doesn't give a damn about you either.  

[Lesilrok]

I kinda had an in depht thought of this situation and I replied to this message like

abstracts have emotional values based on genetic values. A tool is useful because of its qualities, identifying them is part of being a human animal, we develop emotional reactions to change we experience and the concept of the self arises from this change.

With each change and emotional feeling the construct we call ourselves is just a term to refer to the culmination of traits, experiences, history, attachments and desires.

The self exists regardless of the illusion, because as being this "self" the illusion has value, this value is not ours to choose sometimes.

But "non-self" is just a blanket term to refer to the inherent meaninglessness of the concept. However meaning and value although not inherent do arise from change l.. being human.  

[Muaethia]

To me, 'self' is not clearly definable. Our conscious state of mind and our sense of self, together with the unique human ability to manipulate the world around us, is, in my opinion, simply because of the size and complexity of our brains.

When I say that it is not clearly defined, I do not agree with the idea that humans are somehow 'different' from animals. For example, dolphins and chimps as well as some dogs, even, show a high level of intelligence and a capability to learn things. They show at least some, very small, level of 'consciousness' (being aware of the wider world outside their lives). The only difference with us is that this intelligence has been taken a step further, and our brains allow us to 'think outside of the box' when it comes to our instincts. We have emotional control and capabilities that no other animals do, and I put this down to evolution:

For example, the need to communicate with another in the species could have caused the genetic mutation that gave us emotions.

shinobikun

With each change and emotional feeling the construct we call ourselves is just a term to refer to the culmination of traits, experiences, history, attachments and desires.

^ Like that. ^ (but isn't that agreeing with that idea I readfabout that we all have a 'common consciousness' passed down in our genetics? O_o)

No-one knows how the human 'mind', however, can be defined. I personally havn't got a clue. I read in mensa magazine a couple of months back that some guy thinks the mind is not simply trapped inside the brain, but surrounds it, kind of like the signal on a mobile phone. But if we were using the mobile phone example, that would acknowledge that there is a higher being (being the 'network provider'), and that we are all part of something bigger. I personally do not believe that my mind is 'trapped' inside my brain/head, having had a few unexplainable psychic experiences.

I could well write an essay on this xd
But I suppose i'd need some sources, references and proof.  

[Superior Jazz]

Self. Such a diverse concept. Self is simply a projection of the brain onto itself so that it can understand what happens to it, in a more real-world-sense. Self allows us to comprehend emotions and feelings, as well as sensations, such as pain, or temperature. That's what I think, anyway...

Another concept that is along the same lines is matter. Define matter, without using colour, shape, size, or texture. What is matter, exactly? Using this thought process, it can be concoeved that everything is a figment of your own imagination, and that nothing really exists outside of your own head. However. This also means that you are a figment of someone else's imagination... complex, no?  

[Maryhl]

It's not just imagination. It feels like we are separate from the universe. Plants are more obvious about their being apart of something bigger... being that they have to be rooted to the ground. So because we can move around and jump up and down... we get the sense that we don't need the ground and that we're not apart of it the same way a plant is.

Not true, of course... but like it's hard to show that the world is round from ground level, it's difficult to show on our level how it's all really stuck together, and we're stuck to it too. And even though we can see that now with pictures.. it's hard to "feel" it.


One of more interesting concepts I've picked up from Buddhism is the idea of rebirth. As anything ancient, it can have a metaphysical slant.. but there's truth in there somewhere.
The idea is that we are constantly being broken up and remade into other things. Just as we were once stars reborn into entire solar systems and life...everything goes through that on some scale. As Conversation of Energy implies.. nothing is creating, nothing is destroyed.. it all has to be converted from somewhere else.

This actually happens as we live too.... everytime we eat or breath.. or anything, we're replacing the atoms inside us. I think it takes like 9 years for all the cells of the body to be entirely reconstructed..? So we really are the same as our environment.  

[Latke]

Kagerou Osajima

The idea is that we are constantly being broken up and remade into other things. Just as we were once stars reborn into entire solar systems and life...everything goes through that on some scale. As Conversation of Energy implies.. nothing is creating, nothing is destroyed.. it all has to be converted from somewhere else.

This actually happens as we live too.... everytime we eat or breath.. or anything, we're replacing the atoms inside us. I think it takes like 9 years for all the cells of the body to be entirely reconstructed..? So we really are the same as our environment.

That's the way I see it, too. I agree with you and Shinobikun -- our physical bodies are just complex arrangements of atoms that are always being replaced, but each of us has a "self" -- a constant stream of consciousness -- that records our memories. The "self" is not a thing in its own right; it's a combination of past memories etched into the harddrive of the brain and the brain's present awareness of what's happening right now.

I think of the self as no more than a bundle of ideas. Personality traits are physically part of our genes, and acquired skills like, say, sculpting, are subconsciously wired into our brain so that our muscles can move in just the right way so as to make a pretty sculpture. The self is purely metaphysical. (is that the word I'm looking for? ninja )

Because humans experience life through the self (their own stream of consciousness, never anyone else's), it's easy for them to think of themselves as indivuduals separate from the world around them, even though that really isn't the case.  

[Maryhl]

If you think of the self as kind of a soul.. that would be metaphysical. Something there but unknowable with normal senses. Arbitrary might be a better word if you wish to avoid that line of thinking. Stuff that's not real, just made up as a kind of symbol... like language itself. wink

The real illusion comes from our senses. The way we see, hear, smell, etc... it's limited, but we somehow use that as empirical evidence... even though we have to assume all humans can see it the same way.
(I've always been deaf in one ear.. so I have no apperception for stereo... good luck proving it's existence to me. ninja )
Like color to a blind person... animals are helpful in pointing it out too. We can't even know what it's like to see like a viper does, because we have to make machines specifically to translate what heat "looks" like into a visual.

I kind of like to use the analogy of a radio for individuals, where we can pick up only so many frequencies. It's only by combining our senses/frequencies together that we understand that we don't have the full picture as just the "self".  

[Muaethia]

Kagerou Osajima

I've always been deaf in one ear.. so I have no apperception for stereo... good luck proving it's existence to me.

I'm the same with my sight... although my conscious mind thinks I see out of both eyes, I'm actually only using one (the left doesn't work unless I close the right) so can't see 'stereoscopically' or in 3 dimensions. I have trouble drawing 3-D shapes as I can't really get the concept.

Perhaps the existance of a 'soul' is like that- a concept humans don't actually have the ability to fully understand.  

[Lesilrok]

I have recently searched my notes for my philosophy class and discussed on what buddhism thinks what the Self is not

Self is not:
1. Form (bodily)
2. Feeling
3. Perception
4. Formation of the will
5. consciousness

anyone care to partake on how this also may affect on if the self exist? razz  

[Maryhl]

Ah, in Buddhism, the dilemma is summed up as attachment, or desire. We desire to eat, to breath, to survive, to be. We even desire not to be forgotten even when we're dead.
The thought is that if you can overcome desire, you can be freed from "rebirth"... go to Nirvana (though I rather think of it as a state of mind), if you like. Just the catch there is if you desire Nirvana... then you are desiring. So tricky it is to become truly selfless. gonk  

[Dathu]

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[DivideByZero14]

I'm with Jazz on this one. To concieve of our "selves" as finite units instead of simultaneously percieving every particle that makes us up is a radical optimization that makes self-awareness possible on such limited hardware as the human brain.

EDIT: Unbelievable! I don't post for, like, two months, and I'm still on the front page? Crazy.