The High Kings of the Noldor

[Edhellos]

Okay. I admit it. I have no life.

Now that we got that out of the way: I have no desire to study for my stats and/or combinatorics exam. Therefore, I have found a way to pass the time.

You may skip this explanation if you wish

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A little bit of background: lately I've been a little obsessed with British Royal history (all the way back to Mary and Elizabeth I) and I've been reading about who enherited what, blabla. It works basically like this:
Male heirs have preference over female heirs. Even if the female is older, she gets bumped down. However, she can become Queen, and supposing everybody else dies, her children would become heirs. Sort of like Queen Elizabeth right now, she was the oldest daugther, so she became Queen when George VI died. Now her oldest son, Charles is the heir apparent.

Heir apparent means if the Queen/King dies, you will automatically become King. Heir presumptive means you will become King if the King dies without children, or your dad doesn't get any more boys after you.

Feel free to look this up on wikipedia, since I feel I have done a bad job at explaining. (Hence saying you could have skipped this xp )

So I decided to do see what the High Kings of the Noldor would have looked like if we followed the rules of British monarchy regarding the throne.
Surprisingly enough, it follows very closely the events of the Silmarillion. I am not trying to claim this is how the Noldor did it. I am just using sort of a backwards logic and it fitted, so I thought I would share.

I am following the genealogy of the Shibboleth, so for the confused, Finwe had three daughters with Indis apart from Fingolfin and Finarfin: Findis, Faniel and Irime. Also, Orodeth is Angrod's son and Gil-Galad is Orodeth's son. I have also chosen to count Amroth as Galadriel's son, because I like that. No other reason. I am also assuming Celebrimbor was born in Valinor.

So, in peaceful Valinor this is what the line of sucession to the throne was:

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Finwe, King of the Noldor

1. Feanor, heir apparent
2. Maedhros
3. Maglor
4. Celegorm
5. Curufin
6. Caranthir
7. Amrod
8. Amras


9. Fingolfin
10. Fingon
11. Turgon
12. Idril
13. Argon
14. Aredhel

15. Finarfin
16. Finrod
17. Angrod
18. Orodeth
19. Aegnor
20. Galadriel

21. Findis
22. Faniel?
23. Irime

Notice how far down the line Fingolfin is! sweatdrop Also, I have colored the different houses with different colors so we can see easily.

Immediately after the death of Finwe and during the March to Middle Earth:

Quote:

Feanor, King of the Noldor

1. Maedhros, heir apparent
2. Maglor
3. Celegorm
4. Curufin
5. Caranthir
6. Amrod
7. Amras

8. Fingolfin
9. Fingon
10. Turgon
11. Idril
12. Argon
13. Aredhel

14. Finarfin
15. Finrod
16. Angrod
17. Orodeth
18. Aegnor
19. Galadriel

20. Findis
21. Faniel?
22. Irime

The italics means the person was close to dying or did not pursue the March.

After the death of Feanor:

Quote:

Maedhros, King of the Noldor

1. Maglor, heir presumptive
2. Celegorm
3. Curufin
4. Caranthir
5. Amrod

6. Fingolfin
7. Fingon
8. Turgon
9. Idril
10. Aredhel

11. Finrod
12. Angrod
13. Orodeth
14. Aegnor
15. Galadriel

16. Irime

Now, Maedhros gives up the Kingship. I equate this with an abdication. In this case, you reliquinship all claims to the throne for your descendents too. Maedhros took out the Feanorians out of the succession.

EDIT: During the captivity of Maedhros, I suppose Maglor would have taken over as High King.

This is what it looks like now:

Quote:

Fingolfin, King of the Noldor
1. Fingon, heir apparent
2. Turgon
3. Idril
4. Aredhel
5. Maeglin

6. Finrod
7. Angrod
8. Orodeth
9. Aegnor
10. Galadriel

11. Irime

However, after the death of Aredhel, everybody gets bumped up

Quote:

Fingolfin, King of the Noldor
1. Fingon, heir apparent
2. Turgon
3. Idril
4. Maeglin

5. Finrod
6. Angrod
7. Orodeth
8. Aegnor
9. Galadriel

10. Irime

I am unsure when Irime died. For fun, let's assume she died around the same time Fingolfin did. If you dislike this, feel free to add her at the end of the list from now on. It doesn't make much difference.

So after the Dagor Bragollach and the events closely following it:

Quote:

Fingon, King of the Noldor
1. Turgon, heir presumptive
2. Idril
3. Maeglin

4. Finrod
5. Orodeth
6. Erenion
7. Finduilas
8. Galadriel

Aegnor and Angrod died, and I have added the children of Orodeth around this time. It is questionable they were born around this time, but not very crucial.

After the episode of Luthien and Beren, Finrod died and he had left the person immediately after him (Orodeth) in charge of Nargothrond.

Quote:

Fingon, King of the Noldor
1. Turgon, heir presumptive
2. Idril
3. Maeglin

4. Orodeth
5. Erenion
6. Finduilas
7. Galadriel

After the Nirnaeth:

Quote:

Turgon, King of the Noldor
1. Idril, heiress presumptive
2. Maeglin

3. Orodeth
4. Erenion
5. Finduilas
6. Galadriel

After the fall of Nargothrond

Quote:

Turgon, King of the Noldor
1. Idril, heiress presumptive
2. Maeglin

3. Erenion
4. Galadriel

After the coming of Tuor to Gondolin:

Quote:

Turgon, King of the Noldor
1. Idril, heiress presumptive
2. Earendil
3. Maeglin

4. Erenion
5. Galadriel

Maeglin got bumped down! surprised

Immediately after the fall of Gondolin, this is what the situation looked like:

Quote:

Idril, Queen of the Noldor?!
1. Earendil, heir apparent

2. Erenion
3. Galadriel

However, after staying a bit with Cirdan, Idril and Tuor left. Once again, and very controversially, I interpret this as an abdication. Earendil is removed from the line of succession.

Quote:

Erenion, King of the Noldor
1. Galadriel, heiress presumptive

Doesn't this make more sense now??? That Gil-Galad would be the next? It fits perfectly!

This remains unchanged for about an Age, changing only because of Galadriel's children:

Quote:

Erenion, King of the Noldor
2. Galadriel, heiress presumptive
3. Amroth
4. Celebrian

After Gil-Galad's death, Galadriel is finally due to the throne. However, few Noldor remained. I also don't think Galadriel was very interested in being the High Queen after all that had happened, and all the things she was doing at the time.

So here ends the line of the High Kings.

Thank you for reading all this. Feel free to ask me questions stressed xp sweatdrop

EDIT: I have corrected what Falathrim pointed out about Celebrimbor.

Quote:

Falathrim

Other stuff to add... If Celebrimbor is indeed a Feanorian (that's one of thsoe details Tolkien never really settled), then he couldn't have been born in Valinor; or so says the Shibboleth, which claims that only two children in the third generation from Finwe went into exile. These were Idril and Orodreth.

Excellent point. I missed that detail. If that's the case, Celebrimbor does not belong in the three places where the Feanorions are still in position to claim the throne. I will have to edit that.

 

[Nimbrethil]

Edhellos, that's so nekkid. whee

So the application of British throne-acendancy rules only works for this geneology?

I guess it makes sense that those are the "rules" that would be used, because of where Tolkien lived and because I'd assume they're pretty standard. Unfortunately, I don't know enough world history/politics to know the practices of other countries.  

[Glorfirith Annun]

Wow Edhellos... You and your obsession with the royal family xd

I agree with Nimbrethil, that is totally nekkid! 3nodding xd

I would never have been able to come up with something like that.

But I still like Gil-Galad's other family... but I think Earendil has dark hair so...  

[Zurgi]

Hmm, wow, you've got a bit of time on your hands.

edhellos

However, after staying a bit with Cirdan, Idril and Tuor left. Once again, and very controversially, I interpret this as an abdication. Earendil is removed from the line of succession.

So...okay, let me get this straight. That's being counted as an abdication because they chose to leave, and didn't actually die, meaning that they were willingly giving it up and thence it would be an abdication?

Unless there's another reason for it...that's what I'm seeing. Which makes sense to me, but I just wasn't sure sweatdrop  

[Edhellos]

Zurgi

Hmm, wow, you've got a bit of time on your hands.

edhellos

However, after staying a bit with Cirdan, Idril and Tuor left. Once again, and very controversially, I interpret this as an abdication. Earendil is removed from the line of succession.

So...okay, let me get this straight. That's being counted as an abdication because they chose to leave, and didn't actually die, meaning that they were willingly giving it up and thence it would be an abdication?

Unless there's another reason for it...that's what I'm seeing. Which makes sense to me, but I just wasn't sure sweatdrop

Yes, an abdication is when you give it up willingly. Kind of like what Maedhros did.
An example in the British monarchy is Edward VIII, who abdicated in the 1930s because they wouldn't let him marry a divorcee (ironically, Charles married one today sweatdrop ).

So getting back to the question, because I am working backwards (ie trying to make things fit), I chose to consider this an abdication, which explains why a Queen Idril was never mentionned. Or why Earendil was not called to be King (his young age would have not posed a problem under the system I am using).

Nimby and Glorfy, I am currently trying to think of a way of making Gil-Galad Fingon's son that would make sense (I briefly commented it on MSN to Nimbrethil). I might edit my post with that later (as an alternate version) if I come up with anything interesting. But don't expect it very soon xd  

[Falathrim]

Amroth as Galadriel's son makes me SAD. But it's your thread so I'll shut up now. And dammit Glorfy, Earendil had golden hair and any insisting otherwise is stupid.

Quick question: is it ever stated that Irien died at all? I can find no reference to her final fate in the Shibboleth, and I even checked the index. Like you said, it makes no difference, but now I'm curious.

Other stuff to add... If Celebrimbor is indeed a Feanorian (that's one of thsoe details Tolkien never really settled), then he couldn't have been born in Valinor; or so says the Shibboleth, which claims that only two children in the third generation from Finwe went into exile. These were Idril and Orodreth.

Orodreth's wife was a Sinda from the north, so I agree with you adding Finduilas and Ereinion where you did.

Very impressive work. smile

EDIT: And don't bother trying to work Ereinion Son of Fingon in there, because that version sucks. razz  

[Glorfirith Annun]

Earendil has dark hair. That's just how I've always seen it and for some reason I can't picture him with light hair.

And Gil-Galad is better as son of Fingon.

ooo question! If Gil-Galad is son of Orodreth, then who would be son of Fingon? Or is Fingon then sonless?  

[Serni]

That is very interesting edhellos! You should feel very accomplished.
3nodding  

[Falathrim]

Glorfirith Annun

Earendil has dark hair. That's just how I've always seen it and for some reason I can't picture him with light hair.

And Gil-Galad is better as son of Fingon.

ooo question! If Gil-Galad is son of Orodreth, then who would be son of Fingon? Or is Fingon then sonless?

Fingon never married.  

[Rhaella]

I don't think I've ever read what happened to Irien/Lalwen, Fala. I don't remember, but I think I might have read something to the effect of, "hey, we don't know what happened to her! yay!"

Not sure, though. sweatdrop

Nice work, Edhellos. 3nodding  

[Edhellos]

Falathrim

Other stuff to add... If Celebrimbor is indeed a Feanorian (that's one of thsoe details Tolkien never really settled), then he couldn't have been born in Valinor; or so says the Shibboleth, which claims that only two children in the third generation from Finwe went into exile. These were Idril and Orodreth.

Excellent point. I missed that detail. If that's the case, Celebrimbor does not belong in the three places where the Feanorions are still in position to claim the throne. I will have to edit that.


About Irime, no clue. Mainly because she is not mentionned in the Silmarillion I suppose. If she is not mentionned in HoME XI (I haven't read that one) then I think her fate is unknown.

@Nimby: some monarchies exclude girls and their heirs completly from accessing the throne.  

[nosila5956]

Wow. That is truely impressive. *claps*

I went to save it in ms word and add all the little accent thingies. I made sure at the Encyclopedia of Arda (I love that site sooo much...). Apparently it's Amrod and not Amros.

Don't shoot me...*hides under rock* I really do appreciate all the work you did to make that.

EDIT:http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/gilgalad.html That may clear up the whole Gil-Galad being Fingon's son thing, but then again, this might not be right either.  

[Edhellos]

nosila5956

Wow. That is truely impressive. *claps*

I went to save it in ms word and add all the little accent thingies. I made sure at the Encyclopedia of Arda (I love that site sooo much...). Apparently it's Amrod and not Amros.

Don't shoot me...*hides under rock* I really do appreciate all the work you did to make that.
.

You're right, it was a typo, thank you. I fixed it now 3nodding
But as for this

Quote:

EDIT:http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/gilgalad.html That may clear up the whole Gil-Galad being Fingon's son thing, but then again, this might not be right either

, did you skip what I said? neutral

Quote:

I am following the genealogy of the Shibboleth, so for the confused, Finwe had three daughters with Indis apart from Fingolfin and Finarfin: Findis, Faniel and Irime. Also, Orodeth is Angrod's son and Gil-Galad is Orodeth's son.

In case you don't know, the Shibboleth of Feanor is part of HoME XII, and Christopher Tolkien admits the idea of Gil-Galad being Fingon's son was an "ephemeral idea" and that the final genealogy had him as Orodeth's son.
I am not upset, but I find rather insulting that you would link me to the Encyclopedia of Arda. I suppose you meant no harm. neutral


EDIT: In December 04 I sent this email to the Encyclopedia of Arda:

Quote:

In the entry of Finarfin, you mention how his name was given its sindarin
form and you cite HoME XII (The Shibboleth).

This indicates that you are familiar with his book. Why then, have you
included Orodeth as Finarfin's son and not even put a small mention that
some sources (the final ones in this case, as Christopher Tolkien says)
indicate he is the son of Angrod? Not even a mention in Gil-galad's entry
either, who is Orodeth's son.

I'm not saying you should change it, but maybe at least make a note of it?
-edited greetins because of my real name-

This is the reply I got

Quote:

You're quite right that this issue needs a comment on the site, and I've been meaning to add something for a while now. I decided at the outset to use the Silmarillion as an (admittedly imperfect) baseline for the site, but there are situations like this where I definitely need to reference the later sources. Notes like this will certainly be added when I have the opportunity, thought I'm afraid it's difficult to estimate when that's likely to be.

Kind regards
Mark Fisher

He hasn't got around to it yet, I guess. But I'm not surprised, since running such a large website must be the ultimate form of procrastination xd 3nodding  

[nosila5956]

I meant no insult. I don't know that many other Tolkien fans online and don't know how many know about the encyclopedia of arda. I'm sorry.

edit: It's times like these when it would be nice if Tolkein was still alive... Not that he would talk to us directly or anything, but what if he had a FAQ on a website XD.  

[Edhellos]

nosila5956

I meant no insult. I don't know that many other Tolkien fans online and don't know how many know about the encyclopedia of arda. I'm sorry.

edit: It's times like these when it would be nice if Tolkein was still alive... Not that he would talk to us directly or anything, but what if he had a FAQ on a website XD.

3nodding No problem and thanks for pointing out the Amrod thing.

crying I wish he was alive. I would spam his inbox every day! Wait that didn't sound right sweatdrop