The Rings of Power

[Onoj]

Well I thought long and hard for a topic to put my two cents in here for a Tolkien discussion and I thought of one! ^_^
Oh and before we get started, yes Falathrim I have looked at the FAQ of the Rings but it has a flaw in it when it comes to this discussion and does not go in to full detail to explain this flaw.


Anyways, we all know the One Ring renders its wearer invisible to those in the material world, but is this a device of Sauron to bring those foolish enough to fall prey to its lure into his control designed after siezing the rings at Eregion OR was it implemented by the elves, albeit unknowingly, through Annatar before he came back to claim them? Now this is where the FAQ of the rings has its problem as it states that obviously the rings weren't meant to have invisibility when the elves made them as the Three never made Elrond, Gandalf, and Galadriel invisible, and the Three were never touched by Sauron. Question answered, right? Only problem is when we run into the fact that Galadriel's ring was invisible to even Frodo.

Are we running on the idea that the Three weren't invisible and yet were at the same time? It could be that the Rings of Power always were meant to exist in both realms, the wraith and the material world, much as the elves who lived in Valinor (I.E. Glorfindel) did. Did this power run out of control when faced with foolish minds who could not comprehend its full power and therefore only wanted it for invisibility? We obviously cannot use Dwarves as an example as they were never concerned with the Rings and therefore not affected by their power, but could this show that the powers of the Rings were activated subconciously by the wearer and since the Dwarves cared not about the power the rings could bring the powers weren't activated?

Then lets look at humans/hobbits. When wearing the Ring they become instantly and fully invisible. Was this because they revered the power of the Ring but because they could not comprehend all of its power the ability of it to exist in both realms engulfed the wearer in its power activated only when the bearer puts it on? (Hence the subconcious activation and also why the chain around Frodo's neck wasn't invisible.) Or was this simply because they wanted the "invisibility" and the Ring gave it to them? (Another example of why the Rings didn't affect Dwarves simply because they didn't want the power.)

And finally a quick analysis of the Three. I don't remember a source stating if Elrond and Gandalf's rings were invisible but they certainly didn't make the wearer invisible, so this plays back on the idea of "Were they ever meant to have invisibility?" Which brings us back again to Galadriel's invisible ring. Obviously when she wears it it has the ability to be in both realms at once yet it doesn't take her. This rules out the idea of the Elves not wanting the power like the Dwarves due to the rings being the only power holding their realms together, so are we to assume that the power was activated subconciously when placed upon the wearer's finger but because they were so strong-willed and fully understood the powers the Rings gave they could control the power from engulfing them and restricting the ability to cross over so finely that it would only affect the ring itself?


That is about all I have now. If I think of something to add I will. Please tell me your thoughts. ^_^  

[Falathrim]

My god! Paragraph breaks! PLEASE!

I want so very badly to read that post, but the lack of paragraphs makes me eyes bleed! crying  

[Nimbrethil]

Although I agree with Fal about the paragraph breaks, I read through the post anyway. I'm brave like that.

If I understood correctly, you're asking about the "invisibility" of the 3 Elven Rings, and why people couldn't see that Gandalf and Elrond and Galadriel were wearing them?

I don't think it's that the rings themselves turned invisible. I think it's just that the wearer didn't have to wear the ring "openly", meaning (I suppose) that the ring wouldn't be obvious or noticable to most observers who weren't looking for it or whom the wearer didn't want to see it. The example being when Frodo is able to see Galadriel's ring for the first time.

Other stuff:

Dwarves weren't concerned with the rings? Which rings? Or did you mean the One Ring?

And I think the One Ring making you invisible (and how/why it does so) is a separate issue from the Three Rings being hard to see, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. confused  

[Onoj]

Sorry. I know I am terrible at writing, I always have been. I am better at verbally explaining what I want, but in posts I try to cram too much information in wherever I can fit it. Grr now I feel stupid. I will try to fix it.

Edit: And nimbrethil the point I was asking was if the three rings of power given originally were designed to give invisibility. (I.E. If Frodo ever wore one would he be invisible?)

Some say that the invisibility was a side effect Sauron gave them after seizing them from the elves but then why would Galadriel's ring be invisible to Frodo?  

[Arbrethil Faelivrin]

The power of the One Ring is relative to it's wearer. Since the elves are of a different race and separate from the others, then the power of those rings would be different from those of the dwarves and men. I'm having a hard time explaining this.

The books also state that Lothlorien fell apart after the departure of Galadriel and the failing of her ring. This gives us an insight into the power of the elven rings. Perhaps they were created for unification, structure, and sustainment, whereas the One Ring was created to rule the others. The three elven rings were hidden so that Sauron would not take them and therefore gain control over the elves. So it would make sense if it was even hidden from Frodo.

More to come....  

[Onoj]

Yes I covered the fact that the rings are there for keeping the elven realms together but all the rings of power were made by the elves and for the elves so their powers should not be different from race to race as they would have those same powers as applied to the elves anyways.

Also there is a big difference between hiding the rings and them being invisible to the naked eye. A BIG difference.  

[SYFFER]

I have a theory that the Dwarves were not able to use the power of their rings because of their lack of spirit. I do not mean that they were not enthusiastic enough, I mean that when Eru created the Elves and Men, he gave them spirits in the form of the Secret Fire. When Aule made the Dwarves, he fashioned them from stone and to stone they return. Aule did not have the power to control the Secret Fire and thus the Dwarves have no soul. I find it possible that the rings control your spirit and not your mind. That means that Orcs, Ents, and other such creatures would not be tempted by the ring. Going a little broader, maybe Tom Bombadil and the Valar were not affected by the ring because of their lack of Spirit. Did Eru use the Secret fire to create the Ainur?  

[Arbrethil Faelivrin]

Not all of the rings were made by the elves...I believe it is mentioned in either the beginning of LotR or the Sil that Sauron captured the elven smiths and took their knowledge, therefore the rings that he handed out were tainted by his evil. I believe that Sauron did not make the elven rings, but I believe they were made by Celebrimbor.

? sweatdrop ?  

[Onoj]

Arbrethil Faelivrin

Not all of the rings were made by the elves...I believe it is mentioned in either the beginning of LotR or the Sil that Sauron captured the elven smiths and took their knowledge, therefore the rings that he handed out were tainted by his evil. I believe that Sauron did not make the elven rings, but I believe they were made by Celebrimbor.

? sweatdrop ?

All the rings were made by the elves it is just that the first 17 were made with his direct influence. After he left to Mordor they thought "Hey we can make these by ourselves, lets do it!" And thus created the three, but if they learned everything about Ringmaking from Sauron then obviously they would still fashion them off part of his teaching.

So he didn't have a direct hand in their creation but he did have some influence over their craft. Hence why the Three may still have the basic principles of "invisibility" in them. In my opinion.  

[Menegil]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[Falathrim]

Where to start, where to start...

Okay. There are four sorts of 'Incarnates.' These are Elves, Men, Dwarves, and Orcs. All four are assumed to have souls. You may be asking why Eru provided newborn Orcs with the Sacred Fire; Tolkien wondered this too, and never came to a satisfying conclusion. But he was steadfast in declaring Orcs Incarnates, so yeah, they have souls. Corrupted souls, but souls all the same.

...that's my take on the matter. You may be inclined to disagree, and you wouldn't be incorrect to do so.

That was slightly off-topic. When I started, I meant to assert that Dwarves have souls, but now that I'm finished I kind of like that so it stays. So... yeah, Dwarves have souls. In fact, Iluvatar considers Dwarves his Third Children, his adopted Children, and loves them no less than he does Elves and Men.

The Ainur also have souls, but they don't have bodies. Tolkien once used the term ealar to describe their souls, and despite only occurring once it appears to have stuck in the fandom as the name for Ainur souls. The only real difference between ealar and fear is that ealar aren't 'married' to a body, or hroa. The Ainur can make bodies, and wear them like a raiment, but they aren't truly hroar in that the eala can abandon the raiment and put on new raiment, or just run round naked.

Ents, Trolls, Eagles... what are they, then? There are a lot of theories out there, but all of them are flawed in some manner. Trolls are said to have been made in mockery of the Ents, but that doesn't mean they are corrupted Ents. Ents and Eagles were conceived by Yavanna and Manwe during the Music of the Ainur, but that doesn't really explain their nature. None of the three are Incarnates. My favorite theory is that they are stray spirits (neither fear nor ealar) that entered into something and, voila, it lives.

Dragons are said to be spirits that entered into animals, and then bred. Somewhere. I've lost the source. sweatdrop


Okay, now that I'm finished with that incredibly off-topic tangent...

All the rings were made by the Elves for the Elves, with the exception of the One. The Seven and the Nine are the same; the only thing that sets them apart is the fact that Sauron distributed them differently. The fact that the Seven worked differently on Dwarves is not because they were different from the Nine, but because the Dwarves were made by Aule to be resilient, as Menegil said.

The Three do not confer invisibility; the Elves who bear them are already halfway into the Spirit-world. I'm pretty sure we all know that, but I said it anyway. Meh.

As for why the Three were invisible when worn... I can't really say. My guess is that the wielders of the Three simply didn't want anyone to know they were being worn, and so made them invisible when worn. They had the knowledge necessary to do so, I would assume.

Poorly assembled post, but I'm in the middle of class so shut up. There's a lot more I could probably talk about but I'm trying to at least kind of pay attention to the lecture. confused

Not doing all that good at the paying attention part, though.  

[Serni]

This may have already been said, and it might not answer any questions, but here I go.

Is it possible that the rings do whatever the wearer desires? Whether it is from their soul or not. It would still turn out evil because of Sauron's influence, but the main objective for the task of the ring is decided by the wearer. So, if they wanted it be be 'invisible' to certain people, it could be.  

[Elainya]

Obvious statement that maybe Tolkien just thought an invisible-turning ring would be cool aside, perhaps Sauron wanted his Ring to stand out. He saw the rest of the Rings and went, "What can I do that's both practical and distinctive?" And thus, he implimented invisibility. Honestly, considering the other traits of the One Ring, that's the least of its powers.  

[Onoj]

Elainya

Obvious statement that maybe Tolkien just thought an invisible-turning ring would be cool aside, perhaps Sauron wanted his Ring to stand out. He saw the rest of the Rings and went, "What can I do that's both practical and distinctive?" And thus, he implimented invisibility. Honestly, considering the other traits of the One Ring, that's the least of its powers.

Yeah this is one theory I was trying to discuss. Is it only the One that confers invisibilty? Or can all the rings do it? (I.E. If the nine men wore their rings would they too turn invisible?)

Now hat I think about it I doubt they would as if you turned invisible every time you wore it you would not wear it enough to turn into a wraith soon enough. Seeing as how Sauron took 600 years to construct Barad-Dur though I doubt he cared about time.

Anyways, if the rings did not make the wearer invisible until they began reaching "wraithdom" then they would obviously wear them non-stop thus bringing them under Sauron control quickly. I guess this is an example of why they wouldn't confer invisibility.

(P.S. To Falathrim I thought that only high elves who spent time in the undying lands existed in both Realms. Therefore Elrond would not but Galadriel would? Maybe I am wrong.)  

[Zurgi]

In my belief it is only the One that would bring about invisibility and bringing the wearer into the wraith-world, but my belief with that is just because I never heard about the others doing so. I don't think it would have been very practical to give rings to the men that would turn them invisible, because I don't know how beneficial that would have been to Sauron in the first place. They could sneak about and find out information (before they were corrupted, that is).