The problem of perfection.

[Redem]

A bigger problem I have with the idea of God is the problem of perfection.

Perfection cannot change, it is static, it is the ultimate state at which an entity can exist. It cannot change. You cannot change from one state to another, and have both of them as perfection. Perfection is an ultimate absolute. It cannot be shared.

And yet... God is a thinking entity? A feeling entity? Thought is nothing but change! You change from one state to another as thoughts are processed. You change from one state to another as decisions are made. So... the ultimate perfection cannot be a thinking entity. It cannot change, so it cannot think. If it cannot think, it cannot love, not freely. It cannot be moral.

It cannot be free. It is a slave, a computer program running in the background. At best God IS the universe. At worst... there is no God.

And creation... the universe cannot be created by such an entity, if it cannot think, or change, it cannot create.

I am speaking of the idea of a perfect, benevolant, loving, thinking god. I... do not think such a being is possible.

Then either Spinoza's god the only realistic possibility for a perfect being, or a non-perfect deity the only possibility.



It was this specific thought that marked my deconversion from Catholicism.

Reading over this it seems a confused mess, but it makes a lot of sense in my head icon_xd.gif
I've never put it in words before though.

But when I was about 15 I was a good little catholic struggling with my faith and my rationalistic approach to life. I read the bible for inspiration, and... nothing I read there helped, much of it disgusted me.
Then i had this thought... which was the final straw, it wasn't instant, but I simply couldn't reconcile belief with it. It is what lead me to agnosticism, then atheism.







Ok. I'm cross posting this from The Anti-Creationist Guild. Copied exactly as is. From here.
Disclaimer: I was drunk when I wrote this, still am, it's not entirely coherent. Cramming my thoughts into words can be hard sometimes.  

[caustic 0_0]

If you really had faith, you'd trust that since we are imperfect we simply cannot fully comprehend God. At least, that's the sort of catch all argument that I've heard.
When I thought about the perfection issue, I always wondered why a perfect being would have to be worshipped and why they would create in the first place. That's what got me more than it's feeling or thinking.
I was raised in a Christian home so more specifically than anything else, the bible was what confused me with the idea of perfection. I didn't get how a god that wanted us with him in heaven could have created us knowing (one would think that there was never any chance of man NOT sinning, as man was imperfect :0) that mankind would be able to doubt him, disobey, and end up not in heaven.  

[Lethkhar]

c a u s t i c

If you really had faith, you'd trust that since we are imperfect we simply cannot fully comprehend God. At least, that's the sort of catch all argument that I've heard.
When I thought about the perfection issue, I always wondered why a perfect being would have to be worshipped and why they would create in the first place. That's what got me more than it's feeling or thinking.
I was raised in a Christian home so more specifically than anything else, the bible was what confused me with the idea of perfection. I didn't get how a god that wanted us with him in heaven could have created us knowing (one would think that there was never any chance of man NOT sinning, as man was imperfect :0) that mankind would be able to doubt him, disobey, and end up not in heaven.

Exactly. A perfect being cannot create imperfect beings. It makes no sense.

One of the arguments to this is that God purposefully made us imperfect. Yet why would a perfect and benevolent being do such a thing? Adam and Eve were obviously damned to eat the fruit from the start; So God couldn't possibly be love, since love would do no such thing.  

[Redem]

Logic is too fundamental to be gotten around so easily as begging off responsibility from discussing god.

And, as a good little catholic, the thought of the impossibility of a thinking, loving, knowing, perfect being... convinced me more than thoughts of the motives of such a being if it did exist. Made me question things a lot more.

But yeah, that all was well. Why would a loving, all-knowing, perfect god create us to fail, to suffer, and be thrown down into eternal torment...

I mean seriously now! Come on! That's more than a little far fetched.  

[Lethkhar]

redem

Logic is too fundamental to be gotten around so easily as begging off responsibility from discussing god.

And, as a good little catholic, the thought of the impossibility of a thinking, loving, knowing, perfect being... convinced me more than thoughts of the motives of such a being if it did exist. Made me question things a lot more.

But yeah, that all was well. Why would a loving, all-knowing, perfect god create us to fail, to suffer, and be thrown down into eternal torment...

I mean seriously now! Come on! That's more than a little far fetched.

Honestly, and Christians bash Scientology...(Ok, maybe they're not THAT bad, but still...)  

[Maryhl]

If true perfection does not exist... then why not take that a step further and question if imperfection exists?  

[Sanguvixen]

Lethkhar

c a u s t i c

If you really had faith, you'd trust that since we are imperfect we simply cannot fully comprehend God. At least, that's the sort of catch all argument that I've heard.
When I thought about the perfection issue, I always wondered why a perfect being would have to be worshipped and why they would create in the first place. That's what got me more than it's feeling or thinking.
I was raised in a Christian home so more specifically than anything else, the bible was what confused me with the idea of perfection. I didn't get how a god that wanted us with him in heaven could have created us knowing (one would think that there was never any chance of man NOT sinning, as man was imperfect :0) that mankind would be able to doubt him, disobey, and end up not in heaven.

Exactly. A perfect being cannot create imperfect beings. It makes no sense.

One of the arguments to this is that God purposefully made us imperfect. Yet why would a perfect and benevolent being do such a thing? Adam and Eve were obviously damned to eat the fruit from the start; So God couldn't possibly be love, since love would do no such thing.

Would a loving mother purposely do drugs while pregnant so that her child would be born imperfect? I don't think so. Would a loving father purposely beat his wife so that the child would be born mentally retarded due to the injuries the woman suffered?

The same goes with a "Perfect" benevolent diety. Christians have no real valid back up as to why humans are imperfect....it is reality.

When you stop to think about it the whole "I want to follow my religion well" it really is one big egotastical journey. They want to be as close to perfection as possible...which means not sinning, and doing as thier religion dictates.

You don't create something without giving yourself some sort of means of control. You would want your creations well aware of thier creator...and reinforce your existance throughout time by doing things to leave no doubt in the minds of your creations that you are real, and you do control thier destiny.

I just cannot imagine a benevolent, omni-potent diety being so stupid as to create something he cannot control, and go absent from his world 2000 years after creating it.

It is akin to having a Kid, raising it to age 18, then leaving to disappear forever from their lives. To have no further envolvement, no phone calls, and just disappear with no way for them to find you.

When you give birth to a child, that is a lifetime commitment, because you never stop being a parent.

If this God, this "Almighty Father" really did care he wouldn't just abandon his creations and leave them to thier own whim. It is not smart...it is foolish.

Another thing to point out if he made the earth for us, and we are supposed to rule it(as the supreme beings of this world)....than why the hell do animals attack us? If we were created by the "Creator" as the ultimate creation than wouldn't you think they would step back and let us have our way?

If you go up to a Tiger and tell it "I am better than you because God created my kind to rule this planet, and in the name of God I command you to not attack me" you are going to get eaten.

Humans are imperfect. The bible is imperfect. As far as I see it perfection does not exist, so in a way imperfection does not exist as well. Perfection is just an egotastical illusion. It is nothing more and nothing less than a way of thinking for humans who want to make themselves feel higher than other humans and better about themselves.

 

[LleuLlawGyfes]

Sanguvixen

When you stop to think about it the whole "I want to follow my religion well" it really is one big egotastical journey.

Perfection is just an egotastical illusion.

Egotastical! Yummy!

Sanguvixen

Would a loving mother purposely do drugs while pregnant so that her child would be born imperfect? I don't think so. Would a loving father purposely beat his wife so that the child would be born mentally retarded due to the injuries the woman suffered?

The flaw in your argument is that neither mother or father that you mentioned is a perfect being, obviously, a perfect being would make perfect creations.  

[Sanguvixen]

LleuLlawGyfes

Sanguvixen

When you stop to think about it the whole "I want to follow my religion well" it really is one big egotastical journey.

Perfection is just an egotastical illusion.

Egotastical! Yummy!

Sanguvixen

Would a loving mother purposely do drugs while pregnant so that her child would be born imperfect? I don't think so. Would a loving father purposely beat his wife so that the child would be born mentally retarded due to the injuries the woman suffered?

The flaw in your argument is that neither mother or father that you mentioned is a perfect being, obviously, a perfect being would make perfect creations.

In that second bit I wasn't alluding to perfection, but the idea of being all loving and all merciful which ties into being "Perfect."

I've been inside several churches. Those people always refer to thier god as a "Holy Father."

From what I see from the Bible, and from what many churches teach, he is nothing like a father, and far from qualifies as being loving and merciful.

A perfect loving father would always forgive his children no matter what they do. In reality however there are unforgivable things. So the idea of being a perfect loving father, or a perfect loving deity is not logical. It doesn't make sense.

If you were to do a bio of this Christian god, you might find him to be a most dysfunction and malevolent individual, who enjoys seeing others suffer in his name.

No parent out there has succeeded in being the perfect parent. So what makes anyone think that a god who created imperfect beings, and an imperfect world is capable of being perfect himself?

Perfection is an illusion, as is Omni-Potence, and being All Merciful....it doesn't exist people! Things that don't exist, traits that don't exist, they belong in the realm of fantasy.

That is all religion is...one big, made up, feel good fantasy that caters to the ego. Perfection my a**. Most Christians, Devout Catholics, as well as other people in other religions act in a way every day that goes against thier religion's teachings.

There is no such thing as a perfect parent, a perfect person, a perfect mortal, a perfect circle, or a perfect god.

 

[Lethkhar]

Kagerou Osajima

If true perfection does not exist... then why not take that a step further and question if imperfection exists?

Good point. How can something be imperfect if nothing is perfect? You can't not be something that's inconcievable.

In conclusion: The terms whould be thrown from the english dictionary.  

[Muaethia]

Perfection is not what someone is. 'Perfection' is an opinion, certain people seem more 'perfect' to one group of people/an individual than another. The christian god cannot be 'perfect' because peoples' ideas of 'perfection' in a God are so contrasting, it would be impossible.

Ok, that's a bit hard to follow, but you get what I mean?  

[Redem]

Muaethia

Perfection is not what someone is. 'Perfection' is an opinion, certain people seem more 'perfect' to one group of people/an individual than another. The christian god cannot be 'perfect' because peoples' ideas of 'perfection' in a God are so contrasting, it would be impossible.

Ok, that's a bit hard to follow, but you get what I mean?

A very good point. However, from the standard Abrahamic, mono-theistic, perspective, perfection is an absolute. It is the definition of god. And, therefore, the idea of the perfect god is self-refuting.  

[Dathu]

Actually...I..uh..believe in perfection. sweatdrop  

[Muaethia]

Dathu

Actually...I..uh..believe in perfection. sweatdrop

You know someone that's completely perfect, then? Or believe that one's life can become perfect in time, with no stress or worry? Please explain what you mean by 'perfection' from your point of view.  

[Seabhac]

I believe that an argument that would be used here is that humans, being imperfect, cannot understand God in His perfection. Therefore to try to figure out why He made them imperfect would be futile.

That sounds very weak, but it's an argument that I think would be made.

Personally, I agree with Muaethia that perfection is an opinion. If one believes that his or her idea of a god is perfection, then so be it, but it cannot be expected that everyone else thinks it is perfect too.