The Maia Wizards

[ChewySkywalker]

As we all remember, in the beloved chapter of the Scouring of the Shire, our beloved Saruman is "killed." Or, to be politically correct, stipped of his physical form as "Sharkey."
I remember reading somewhere (can't quite remember where I read this) that the Maia spirits that were sent to Middle Earth in the form of Wizards to aid the peoples of Middle Earth, could return to Valinor (If I remember correctly, their spirits went ot dwell there). Both Alatar and Pallando returned, which Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast remained on Middle Earth to assist the people.
When Gandalf fought the Balrog, he "died" for a short period of time. As in, his spirit left his body. As I believe, Eru did not feel that his task was fulfilled so he returned him back to his physical state as a more powerful Wizard. My belief is that this was his fate once Saruman was discovered to have been corrupted by Sauron and had turned to the "Dark Side." Gandalf was their to replace him so that yet again, good may triump over evil.
Now to get to my point. Once Grima rid the physical body of Saruman, of it's spirit, the spirit becomes nameless. I believe that it goes off to Valinor and remains there until Eru finds use for the spirit and reincarnates it into another physical form sent to Middle Earth.

The Scouring of the Shire

But at that something snapped: suddenly Wormtongue rose up, drawing a hidden knife, and then with a snarl like a dog he sprang on Saruman's back, jerked his head back, cut his thrat, and with a yell ran off down the lane. Before Frodo could recover or speak a word, three hobbit-bows twanged and Wormtongue fell dead.

To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.

Now I have two thins here to discuss:

1. Discuss if what I am saying is true.
2. If what I am sayign could be possibly true, could we possibly figure out who he was reincarnated as.
3. What happened to Radagast? (Eh I forgot if it is mentioned somewhere or not >.<)  

[Zurgi]

First...from what I've read I thought that Alatar and Pallando both went to roam in the East, rather than returning to Valinor while Gandalf, Radagast, and Saruman stayed. I'm pretty sure they went to the East. Shall check.

Unfinished Tales: The Istari

Of the Blue little was known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin 'the Blue Wizards'; for they passed into the East with Curunir, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known.

Just had to clear that up xD They did not return to Valinor, or it is not known that they did.

Now on the issue of Saruman..

Unfinished Tales: The Istari

Whereas Curunir was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.

So if we take this to be the final truth on the issue of Saruman's 'death' and what happened afterwards, then he never returned to Middle-earth, so he was never reincarnated as another being on Middle-earth.

As for what happened to Radagast...I honestly have no idea.  

[Gussumaru Kenji]

It never really mentions what happens to Radagast..... maybe he stayed...and ..um I don't know. Anyway Saruman isn't coming back.  

[Onoj]

No one is sure what eventually happens to the wizards save Gandalf. When you are stripped of your physical form it is true that you are now nameless but your sins are still present. Saruman was corrupted and his spirit was never allowed in the hallowed place of Aman ever again. (Will try to find source)

And the same goes with Radhagast, his task was to aid the peoples of Middle Earth but he was corrupted by the animals of middle earth. He became more engrossed in the lore and protection of them rather than doing the job appointed to him. After the War of the Ring it never says any more of his travels but upon going against his orders and betraying Gandalf to Saruman I doubt he would be allowed back.

And what you really have to think about even if you don't like my "nameless but not sinless" idea then how else would you explain it? Sauron took many forms but his same horrible spirit remained the same. So just because you are nameless doesn't mean your spirit changes. And even if the case was that they were allowed back to Valinor would they even choose to go back? Sauron didn't, so why would Saruman?  

[SYFFER]

Here is my opinion provided I've read almost everything about the Istari. Olorin (Gandalf) was selected from among the Maiar by Manwe to guide the peoples of Middle Earth against the threat of Sauron. Curumo (Saruman) was sent by Aule.

Aiwendil (radagast) was sent by Yavanna. Alatar and Pallando were selected by Orome. Now when they journeyed to Middle Earth, Olorin and Curumo stayed in the North-West and aided Elves and Men. Aiwendil lived in Rhosgobel at the edge of Mirkwood and formed a relationship with the animals. Alatar and Pallando journeyed to the East where it is said that they were either corrupted by Sauron and became his servants or that they were defeated and killed by him.

When an Istari, or any Maia, "dies", he loses his physical form and his spirit journeys back to Valinor. The truth is, Eru plays a small role and acts mostly as a by-stander watching Arda. When Gandalf fought the Balrog and "died", his spirit was recalled by Manwe and was sent back with more power to help defeat Sauron. When Saruman died, he attempted to go back to Valinor but the Valar rejected him and pushed him tot he East where his spirit wandered lost and helpless.

There. With the absense of Falathrim someone has to answer all the questions 3nodding .  

[ChewySkywalker]

SYFFER

Here is my opinion provided I've read almost everything about the Istari. Olorin (Gandalf) was selected from among the Maiar by Manwe to guide the peoples of Middle Earth against the threat of Sauron. Curumo (Saruman) was sent by Aule.

Aiwendil (radagast) was sent by Yavanna. Alatar and Pallando were selected by Orome. Now when they journeyed to Middle Earth, Olorin and Curumo stayed in the North-West and aided Elves and Men. Aiwendil lived in Rhosgobel at the edge of Mirkwood and formed a relationship with the animals. Alatar and Pallando journeyed to the East where it is said that they were either corrupted by Sauron and became his servants or that they were defeated and killed by him.

When an Istari, or any Maia, "dies", he loses his physical form and his spirit journeys back to Valinor. The truth is, Eru plays a small role and acts mostly as a by-stander watching Arda. When Gandalf fought the Balrog and "died", his spirit was recalled by Manwe and was sent back with more power to help defeat Sauron. When Saruman died, he attempted to go back to Valinor but the Valar rejected him and pushed him tot he East where his spirit wandered lost and helpless.

There. With the absense of Falathrim someone has to answer all the questions 3nodding .

Feh, no quotes? No proof? I really did think it was Eru who recalled his spirit, not Manwe. QUOTES! I need proof!  

[SYFFER]

ChewySkywalker

SYFFER

Here is my opinion provided I've read almost everything about the Istari. Olorin (Gandalf) was selected from among the Maiar by Manwe to guide the peoples of Middle Earth against the threat of Sauron. Curumo (Saruman) was sent by Aule.

Aiwendil (radagast) was sent by Yavanna. Alatar and Pallando were selected by Orome. Now when they journeyed to Middle Earth, Olorin and Curumo stayed in the North-West and aided Elves and Men. Aiwendil lived in Rhosgobel at the edge of Mirkwood and formed a relationship with the animals. Alatar and Pallando journeyed to the East where it is said that they were either corrupted by Sauron and became his servants or that they were defeated and killed by him.

When an Istari, or any Maia, "dies", he loses his physical form and his spirit journeys back to Valinor. The truth is, Eru plays a small role and acts mostly as a by-stander watching Arda. When Gandalf fought the Balrog and "died", his spirit was recalled by Manwe and was sent back with more power to help defeat Sauron. When Saruman died, he attempted to go back to Valinor but the Valar rejected him and pushed him tot he East where his spirit wandered lost and helpless.

There. With the absense of Falathrim someone has to answer all the questions 3nodding .

Feh, no quotes? No proof? I really did think it was Eru who recalled his spirit, not Manwe. QUOTES! I need proof!

Too lazy to look up quotes considering I got the info from several books. I think that all Eru did was create Arda and all the creatures but does not directly control what goes on in it. He knows its fate but does not influence it directly.  

[ChewySkywalker]

SYFFER

ChewySkywalker

SYFFER

Here is my opinion provided I've read almost everything about the Istari. Olorin (Gandalf) was selected from among the Maiar by Manwe to guide the peoples of Middle Earth against the threat of Sauron. Curumo (Saruman) was sent by Aule.

Aiwendil (radagast) was sent by Yavanna. Alatar and Pallando were selected by Orome. Now when they journeyed to Middle Earth, Olorin and Curumo stayed in the North-West and aided Elves and Men. Aiwendil lived in Rhosgobel at the edge of Mirkwood and formed a relationship with the animals. Alatar and Pallando journeyed to the East where it is said that they were either corrupted by Sauron and became his servants or that they were defeated and killed by him.

When an Istari, or any Maia, "dies", he loses his physical form and his spirit journeys back to Valinor. The truth is, Eru plays a small role and acts mostly as a by-stander watching Arda. When Gandalf fought the Balrog and "died", his spirit was recalled by Manwe and was sent back with more power to help defeat Sauron. When Saruman died, he attempted to go back to Valinor but the Valar rejected him and pushed him tot he East where his spirit wandered lost and helpless.

There. With the absense of Falathrim someone has to answer all the questions 3nodding .

Feh, no quotes? No proof? I really did think it was Eru who recalled his spirit, not Manwe. QUOTES! I need proof!

Too lazy to look up quotes considering I got the info from several books. I think that all Eru did was create Arda and all the creatures but does not directly control what goes on in it. He knows its fate but does not influence it directly.

Lazy, anyone want to find the quotes or shall we summon Fala?  

[Thaxul]

Onoj

And the same goes with Radhagast, his task was to aid the peoples of Middle Earth but he was corrupted by the animals of middle earth. He became more engrossed in the lore and protection of them rather than doing the job appointed to him. After the War of the Ring it never says any more of his travels but upon going against his orders and betraying Gandalf to Saruman I doubt he would be allowed back.

I don't think radagast betrayed Gandalf to Saruman. Saruman fooled Radagast and sent him to summon Gandalf to Isengard where he would be held prisoner. No fault on Radagasts ehalf.  

[Onoj]

thaxul

Onoj

And the same goes with Radhagast, his task was to aid the peoples of Middle Earth but he was corrupted by the animals of middle earth. He became more engrossed in the lore and protection of them rather than doing the job appointed to him. After the War of the Ring it never says any more of his travels but upon going against his orders and betraying Gandalf to Saruman I doubt he would be allowed back.

I don't think radagast betrayed Gandalf to Saruman. Saruman fooled Radagast and sent him to summon Gandalf to Isengard where he would be held prisoner. No fault on Radagasts ehalf.

Well we must consider the fact of stupidity. If Radaghast was so blind that he was fooled by an empty summon from Saruman was there still no fault? I guess it falls on the idea of if I sent someone in my place in a car and the car crashed would their death have been my fault? It seems simple enough to say no but it could be argued either way.

And Chewy I will find quotes I promise! I, like SYFFER, have just been too lazy to do it yet. And yeah where is Falathrim? This is the first arguement I have never seen him make even an appearance in.  

[Falathrim]

Will thou learn the lore that was long secret
of the Five that came from a far country?
One only returned. Other never again
under Men's dominion Middle-earth shall seek
until Dagor Dagorath and the Doom cometh.
How hast thou heard it: the hidden counsel
of the Lords of the West in the land of Aman?
The long roads are lost that led thither,
and to mortal Men Manwe speaks not.
From the West-that-was a wind bore it
to the sleeper's ear, in the silences
under night-shadow, when news is brought
from lands forgotten and lsot ages
over seas of years to the searching thought.
Not all are forgotten by the Elder King.
Sauron he saw as a slow manace...

EDIT: And if you're too lazy to find quotes to back your point your an idiot who has no right to present themselves in a debate forum.

EDIT2: I need to stress the lazy in my above edit. If you have no acess to your source, well, that's not exactly great, but you're making an effort and it isn't your fault anyway. Laziness, however...  

[cattirun]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[Zurgi]

All the comments about Radagast being stupid and Saruman sending Radagast with an empty message and whatnot..

Quote:

"I have been told that wherever they go the Riders ask for news of a land called Shire."
*skipskipskip*
"Who told you, and who sent you?" I asked.
"Saruman the White," answered Radagast. "And he told me to say that if you feel the need, he will help; but you must seek his aid at once, or it will be too late."

Next topic. Eru or Manwe?

From what I have found in the LOTR, all it says is:

Quote:

'Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.
'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done.

And that is all it says. I have to go eat though, so if I find anything in Unfinished Tales or Silmarillion (...more likely UT, I think) I shall post it after. I personally think Manwe.  

[Onoj]

Falathrim

And if you're too lazy to find quotes to back your point your an idiot who has no right to present themselves in a debate forum.

Eh.  

[Zurgi]

Onoj

Falathrim

And if you're too lazy to find quotes to back your point your an idiot who has no right to present themselves in a debate forum.

Eh.

Yeah, I'd have to agree with Falathrim. Except..I wouldn't have put it as bluntly, but that's just my personality xd If you're going to debate something, don't make other people find quotes for you -__- I do admit that I have done it a few times, though, but now I realize how annoying it is to have someone saying "yeahhh...can someone find me the quote?"