Touchy-Feely (now with vitamins!)

[AnonymouZ]

I daresay LOVE/HATE/SADNESS and all that crap about "feelings" is BULLSHIT. If we rid ourselves of silly ideas like "soulmates" and "hate", then maybe we can achieve even more things as human beings... altho love has it's uses, like it inspires the desire to someone to reproduce, but why should we exalt something that we cannot even measure? ********, how can you even know it exists?

To exist, to be, anything has to occupy a place in space... otherwise we all end up just believing it does exist, without having PROOF. Does that remind you of something?

I mean... when was the last time you touched love? smelled it? tasted it? saw it? I for one haven't heard love in all my life either. Should we all assume that because someone says they are feeling love, that they are telling the truth? is love what they're feeling or just a chemical reaction that is telling their brain they are feeling love?

Well...?  

[Dread Dionaea]

I say love is entirely a chemical reaction BUT that doesn't lessen it's validity. Life on Earth is a series of chemical reactions that set off all of the wide variety of life we see before us. The amazingly intricate symbiotic relationships we see that affect entire ecosystems came wholly from chemical reactions.
The only reason parents of any species care for their young are the impulses firing through their brains that inspire them to keep the next generation alive. It manifests (at least in humans) as love. Without that strong affection no species would care for their progeny and the survival rates would drop.
Have you ever heard of Maisosaurs? A whole herd of them was uncovered not too long ago. A volcano had wiped them all out and their last act alive was to throw themselves on their nests in a vain attempt to cover the eggs and save them from the lava. No matter how futile it was, it spoke volumes about the role of affection in the survival of the species.
As for romantic love, I don't exactly care WHY I feel it. What I DO care about is how immensely it improved my quality of life. I always have someone to cheer me up when I'm down, and conversely the best feeling in the world is cheering him up after a bad day.
Frankly, while I loved life before despite all my problems, my life is so drastically improved after this that it seems like two entirely different experiances. Wait around. You'll see.  

[Muaethia]

Maybe you're right on this. After all, buddhists describe enlightenment a state where you feel no emotion, and if you feel emotion you're attached to the material world so cannot achieve inner peace. Buddhism as a philosophy makes sense, so you may be onto something.

However, I like being human. I like to feel emotion. Love is a chemical reaction indeed, but I disagree with you saying feelings are bullshit.

You, sir, have obviously never been in love so you probably won't know what i'm gettig at here. It's sad that you don't believe that one person can love another completely. I'd define love as "seeing someone who is imperfect perfect in every way, and adoring then just for being". This concept won't go down well with you, I can tell.

About the brain... yes, obviously our emotions are part of our brain, but if you're really depressed/lonely/feeling love, havn't you ever felt it as if it spreads out from your heart to the rest of your body? Strange idea, I know, but i've experienced it myself. I wonder how that works?

So yes, love is 100% real, it is an emotion like no other.

Last time I touched love was at about 11.15 am this morning.

Smelled ditto

Tasted... around August

Saw it- about 11.30 am this morning.

Ditto heard.

Love can be detected in the senses through someone you love.  

[Tenth Speed Writer]

I will admit, emotions like love can cloud the mind, but let's not hate them.

Those emotions, and the ability to feel them, are the treasured thing whichs which make humans human. The goal should never be to purge ourselves of them, but should instead be to learn when it is better to follow what we know is right than what our heart tells us.


I know I wouldn't last a day without them...  

[The MoUsY spell-checker]

I remember hearing from the radio that if you only had reason and no emotions, you wouldn't be able to make decisions. They even had an example of someone who had some kind of brain damage so that the part responsible for feeling was disconnected from the part for reason or something like that.  

[Sanguvixen]

I think people tend to look at it from the wrong perspective. I still maintain that we are highly social animals, and a characteristic of being a social animal is a dependancy on socialization, relationships...and stuff like that.

It is how we survive without blowing each other up too often.

Love has to deal with abstract thoughts. That is how I look at it. Love, hate, anger, sadness....these are all things that you cannot touch, but is believed to very much be real.

It is a term given to describe feelings that are in your body. They exist, but they are absract.

I daresay that if we rid ourselves of ideas concerning love/hate/sadness and soul mates, we would no longer be human.

The ability to feel things, and then give them a name, and attach complex ideas to them is a part of being human.

 

[Yami_Ichi]

Let's look at it this way. You say that there are no feelings, yet a feeling is what gave you this very idea. Even though you may not think so, the hatred of feelings is what gave you this idea. And wow.. hatred is a feeling.

Feelings are there. They may not be something that you can physically touch, but they are there. As stated, they are chemical reactions. And sad to say, you yourself cannot control your own chemical reactions in your body without some kinda of treatment.

 

[Lethkhar]

anon_nymouz

I daresay LOVE/HATE/SADNESS and all that crap about "feelings" is BULLSHIT. If we rid ourselves of silly ideas like "soulmates" and "hate", then maybe we can achieve even more things as human beings... altho love has it's uses, like it inspires the desire to someone to reproduce, but why should we exalt something that we cannot even measure? ********, how can you even know it exists?

To exist, to be, anything has to occupy a place in space... otherwise we all end up just believing it does exist, without having PROOF. Does that remind you of something?

I mean... when was the last time you touched love? smelled it? tasted it? saw it? I for one haven't heard love in all my life either. Should we all assume that because someone says they are feeling love, that they are telling the truth? is love what they're feeling or just a chemical reaction that is telling their brain they are feeling love?

Well...?

Let me put it this way...When was the last time you touched your brain? smelled it? tasted it? saw it?

Never? Then I conclude that your brain doesn't exist.

See? Just because you haven't sensed it that doesn't automatically make it not exist.

Surely as a human you must admit that we have feelings. We've all felt fear, anger, and happiness.

Emotions are a series of chemical and electrical reactions within the brain. They exist as much as your brain exists. You feel them.

There is scientific evidence that the mind produces certain hormones when in the presence of what most people would call a "soul mate", or simply a partner that your personality takes a great attachment to. There's also scientific evidence that when people experience emotions like love, hate, and sadness their brains have a certain reaction running through them.  

[AnonymouZ]

Aufstandkind

I say love is entirely a chemical reaction BUT that doesn't lessen it's validity. Life on Earth is a series of chemical reactions that set off all of the wide variety of life we see before us. The amazingly intricate symbiotic relationships we see that affect entire ecosystems came wholly from chemical reactions.
The only reason parents of any species care for their young are the impulses firing through their brains that inspire them to keep the next generation alive. It manifests (at least in humans) as love. Without that strong affection no species would care for their progeny and the survival rates would drop.
Have you ever heard of Maisosaurs? A whole herd of them was uncovered not too long ago. A volcano had wiped them all out and their last act alive was to throw themselves on their nests in a vain attempt to cover the eggs and save them from the lava. No matter how futile it was, it spoke volumes about the role of affection in the survival of the species.
As for romantic love, I don't exactly care WHY I feel it. What I DO care about is how immensely it improved my quality of life. I always have someone to cheer me up when I'm down, and conversely the best feeling in the world is cheering him up after a bad day.
Frankly, while I loved life before despite all my problems, my life is so drastically improved after this that it seems like two entirely different experiances.

Umm, i mildly agree with you about how it helps the continuation of the species. Yours and Mousy's argument seem most ... err.. compatible to my way of thinking. Yet, you manage to avoid the "hate" subject. i know it was my mistake to give "love" a spotlight by using it on all the sense-existing questions, but love isn't the only feeling that exists. What could you possibly see as positive in someone who "hates", then?  

[AnonymouZ]

Muaethia said:

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I'd define love as "seeing someone who is imperfect perfect in every way, and adoring then just for being". This concept won't go down well with you, I can tell.

And yet, if you ask anybody, anywhere, they will probably have a different version of love. Of course, by now everyone has a generalized idea of what love is, so many people will probably coincide in defining the word, BUT this and other definitions can only be opinionized since the feeling is abstract. It's kinda like people listening to your definition of "God" and thinking you're crazy because you don't believe in it (if you're atheist).

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Love can be detected in the senses through someone you love.

I disagree. Someone you "love" gives you the impression that the feeling exists, but just because a christian says he can sense God through me when i help out a stranger doesn't mean a God exists... does it?


The MoUsY spell-checker said:

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I remember hearing from the radio that if you only had reason and no emotions, you wouldn't be able to make decisions.

And this is so true. If you didn't feel "love" monogamy would seem retarded. If you didn't "hate" anybody you wouldn't see the need to kill them. If you didn't feel "sad" there would be no need to kill yourself or sit and watch tv a whole weekend trying to forget about your breakup. I'm not saying the opposite is better (polygamy, partying, ignoring the people we don't like) but it could bring a more comfortable/pleasurable lifestyle. After all, we only live once... RIGHT?



Sanguvixen said:

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I think people tend to look at it from the wrong perspective. I still maintain that we are highly social animals, and a characteristic of being a social animal is a dependancy on socialization, relationships...and stuff like that.

It is how we survive without blowing each other up too often.

And yet, we do blow up each other too often. If not with bombs, with any other means possible. I mean, kids in africa don't die of starvation because we love them, right? Just because it doesn't happen on your society, does not mean humans have stopped altogether on the blowing up subject. But what IS the correct "look" then?

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I daresay that if we rid ourselves of ideas concerning love/hate/sadness and soul mates, we would no longer be human.

The ability to feel things, and then give them a name, and attach complex ideas to them is a part of being human.

I definitely agree, but the idea to give complex ideas to something natural ALSO makes us stop thinking CRITICALLY. Just because someone couldn't figure out why it rained so bad in the summer and said it was an angry/happy god (depending on where this person lived) didn't mean a god was making it rain... does it? Just because some retard started a chain mail that said your d**k would fall if you didn't send it in .3 milliseconds and swore it to be true does not mean it could happen, does it?



Yami_Ichi said:

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Feelings are there. They may not be something that you can physically touch, but they are there. As stated, they are chemical reactions. And sad to say, you yourself cannot control your own chemical reactions in your body without some kinda of treatment.

I have no control over it when I accidentally kick with my toe the corner of a desk and yell "******** DAMNIT!", but i don't "hate" the desk. I may dislike very much some music style, but that doesn't mean i "hate" it either. And if ******** damnit, you cannot physically touch it, then why deny/doubt the existence of a god then? This may seem unrelated, but i thought you were talking about drugging oneself to control my "emotions" or chemical states:

Just because people find it easier to cope with depression or other mentall illnesses (or emotions out of control) does not mean doping yourself is the correct way to live your life, that is of course, unless you are a danger to yourself or others, because then I'D put you on medication just because i'm "selfish" and appreciate my safety.



And lastly,

Lethkhar

Let me put it this way...When was the last time you touched your brain? smelled it? tasted it? saw it?

Never? Then I conclude that your brain doesn't exist.

See? Just because you haven't sensed it that doesn't automatically make it not exist..

First of all I must say: "WHAT THE ******** ARE YOU SAYING MAN?!?! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR ******** MIND?! i mean... DUDE?!?! WTF?!?! LYKEOMG!! this is the absolutely first time i've ever SEEN this kind of argument on an atheist forum... used by an ATHEIST!!" (or agnostic? i haven't reviewed your profile.)

And then, I would continue like this:

Senses are critical to acknowledge anything as real, or existent, which is why a brain-scan can assure me my brain exists. It can show me a picture of a place in space inside my skull that holds my brain and even picture it. Therefore making it easy to see. Even when I haven't used my other senses to acknowledge it we all know only one is needed to recognize whatever's existence. Therefore there is a way i can *turret sydrome kind of voice* ********! Prove its existence.

Well, if you apply it to feelings, whatever they may be, you'd realize they cannot offer proof of its existence. It's only chemicals that make it known to our consciousness that we "love" or "hate" something or someone.

But think just for a minute. (ALL of you) This chemical reaction is just that. A pleasurable, or noncomforting reaction to a stimulus, which can be that "odious" person or that "someone you love", it doesn't matter. This "feeling" is just a response triggered by your stimulated brain. Since we dont' understand it, we label the result in our consciousness as love, hate, or sadness, or fear... whatever, but labeling something we dont' understand and claim it to exist... well... that sounds like theist thinking to me. Why would you guys deny/doubt the idea of an existing god then, if you can't see it, hear it, smell it, etc?

Lethkhar

Surely as a human you must admit that we have feelings. We've all felt fear, anger, and happiness.

Emotions are a series of chemical and electrical reactions within the brain. They exist as much as your brain exists. You feel them.

Wrong. You feel the effects of chemical reactions on your body. Let it be a "hole" in your stomach or blood rising to your head. It's only because you label it as love that you make it seem so much "cooler" to love, or much more "acceptable" to hate.

Lethkhar

There is scientific evidence that the mind produces certain hormones when in the presence of what most people would call a "soul mate", or simply a partner that your personality takes a great attachment to. There's also scientific evidence that when people experience emotions like love, hate, and sadness their brains have a certain reaction running through them.

So it's "love" making the reactions happen? or is it YOUR reaction to your lover that stimulates your brain? Where can you breathe this love then? how can you inject it? how can you cure hate? because i'm sure as hell that if you believe in love then maybe hate is something "bad" right?

What i'm saying people, is to NOT exalt feelings at all. Understand them as what they are: Chemical reactions.

Once understood, there is no reason to hate anybody, because you learn that you just dont' like that person is all. There is no need to "love" somebody, just because you think you're ugly and you probably won't do better than that. There is no need to be sad, because grandma was destined to die the moment she was born (or conceived, depending on your morals) Once you understand all this chemical reactions are just a way that your body is making YOU know it's tastes, only then can YOU have a decision about what to do with these responses your body is telling you. Are you gonna shoot that person because you don't like them? Are you gonna love them, because is necessary?

I agree that emotions are what makes us humans, and help in decision making when you don't trust somebody. But they're not supposed to rule every action that we take... It's supposed to be the other way around!!  

[Sanguvixen]

Anonymous...I'm going to back out of this one.

You seem to be getting all riled up for no reason, and I don't quite understand what your beef is with what, or what you are trying to say.

Love to you is a Chemical Reaction....ok...that is nice.

Well I have no place to say anything in this thread becuase I've never really been in love before, and I don't exactly hold a lot of love in my heart for people in general.

All I know is when my black cat gets on my my chest, purring away, and nuzzling me I feel a warm feeling in my body, and it feels good. Is that love? Is that a stupid Chemical reaction?

Who cares. It feels good and that is all that matters to me. It's a feel good feeling that many people happen to like.

I do agree it shouldn't rule your life. Why do you think I wait? I want to be out of collage, and have a steady job before I think about even beginning to date.

To me...having someone to love, and to love you is...not as a big a thing as people make it out to be.

 

[Lethkhar]

anon_nymouz

And lastly,

Lethkhar

Let me put it this way...When was the last time you touched your brain? smelled it? tasted it? saw it?

Never? Then I conclude that your brain doesn't exist.

See? Just because you haven't sensed it that doesn't automatically make it not exist..

First of all I must say: "WHAT THE ******** ARE YOU SAYING MAN?!?! ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR ******** MIND?! i mean... DUDE?!?! WTF?!?! LYKEOMG!! this is the absolutely first time i've ever SEEN this kind of argument on an atheist forum... used by an ATHEIST!!" (or agnostic? i haven't reviewed your profile.)

*Ignored*

I am a Weak Atheist. I'm allowed to not make assumptions.

Quote:

And then, I would continue like this:

Senses are critical to acknowledge anything as real, or existent, which is why a brain-scan can assure me my brain exists. It can show me a picture of a place in space inside my skull that holds my brain and even picture it. Therefore making it easy to see. Even when I haven't used my other senses to acknowledge it we all know only one is needed to recognize whatever's existence. Therefore there is a way i can *turret sydrome kind of voice* ********! Prove its existence.

...So you trust your senses, do you?

Ever heard of a man named Rene Descartes? You must doubt your senses, as they aren't necessarily trustworthy. "I think, therefore I am." You cannot technically prove the existence of anything but your conscience.


Anyways, we'll leave that particular philosophical thought for now and continue to this: Your senses aren't physical objects, are they? So why do you believe that they exist yet don't believe emotions exist?

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Well, if you apply it to feelings, whatever they may be, you'd realize they cannot offer proof of its existence. It's only chemicals that make it known to our consciousness that we "love" or "hate" something or someone.

Exactly. You've just said that emotions exist. You agree with me. confused

What's the argument, again?

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But think just for a minute. (ALL of you) This chemical reaction is just that. A pleasurable, or noncomforting reaction to a stimulus, which can be that "odious" person or that "someone you love", it doesn't matter. This "feeling" is just a response triggered by your stimulated brain. Since we dont' understand it, we label the result in our consciousness as love, hate, or sadness, or fear... whatever, but labeling something we dont' understand and claim it to exist... well... that sounds like theist thinking to me. Why would you guys deny/doubt the idea of an existing god then, if you can't see it, hear it, smell it, etc?

Can you smell your sight?

Love is a chemical reaction in your brain, yes. That's been scientifically proven. Therefore, love exists.

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Lethkhar

Surely as a human you must admit that we have feelings. We've all felt fear, anger, and happiness.

Emotions are a series of chemical and electrical reactions within the brain. They exist as much as your brain exists. You feel them.

Wrong. You feel the effects of chemical reactions on your body. Let it be a "hole" in your stomach or blood rising to your head. It's only because you label it as love that you make it seem so much "cooler" to love, or much more "acceptable" to hate.

So your point is that love and hate exist, but we shouldn't label them? confused

I thought you were saying that love and hate don't exist.

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Lethkhar

There is scientific evidence that the mind produces certain hormones when in the presence of what most people would call a "soul mate", or simply a partner that your personality takes a great attachment to. There's also scientific evidence that when people experience emotions like love, hate, and sadness their brains have a certain reaction running through them.

So it's "love" making the reactions happen?

No, it's the reactions making "love" happen. That's what I said, right?

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or is it YOUR reaction to your lover that stimulates your brain?

Yes.

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Where can you breathe this love then?

You don't breathe it. I mean, I guess someone could have a certain reaction to the smell of a loved one...

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how can you inject it?

What?!?

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how can you cure hate?

Cure...hate? It's not a disease. It's a reaction to someone or something that your mind doesn't want to accept for whatever reason. I suppose you could "cure" it (And by "cure", I mean "stop hating") by completely ignoring your personal opinions and going completely on rationality. Something which the sane human mind is quite incapable of.

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because i'm sure as hell that if you believe in love then maybe hate is something "bad" right?

Did I say that? Where?

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What i'm saying people, is to NOT exalt feelings at all. Understand them as what they are: Chemical reactions.

Oh, so we agree with each other. Maybe you should've made your point a bit more clear. The way it was worded, it sounded like you didn't believe emotions existed.

However, I will still exalt them. Why? The same reason my friend exalts marijuana. It makes him feel good. I like feeling emotions, and if I ignored them I think my life as a human would be very dull.

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Once understood, there is no reason to hate anybody, because you learn that you just dont' like that person is all.

...That's sort of what "hating someone" means...

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There is no need to "love" somebody, just because you think you're ugly and you probably won't do better than that.

I won't speak to this. You've obviously never felt "love". It's not a matter of desperation, it's a matter of finding a person who acts as a stimulus of the reaction we've labeled as "love".

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There is no need to be sad, because grandma was destined to die the moment she was born (or conceived, depending on your morals)

So? I can still cry because I've lost it. Knowing you're about to go bankrupt and losing your house and everything in it are two different things.

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Once you understand all this chemical reactions are just a way that your body is making YOU know it's tastes, only then can YOU have a decision about what to do with these responses your body is telling you. Are you gonna shoot that person because you don't like them? Are you gonna love them, because is necessary?

Welcome to maturity. stare

I guess I shouldn't have been sarcastic like that. There are a lot of people in the world who still act like children with their emotions.

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I agree that emotions are what makes us humans, and help in decision making when you don't trust somebody. But they're not supposed to rule every action that we take... It's supposed to be the other way around!!

Supposed to, but some emotions are much too powerful for our rationale to overcome. Love, for instance. I feel like I'm on Chrystal Meth or something.  

[Muaethia]

Look, I can see you're not going to be persuaded on this one. Basically, you're never going to understand love unless you've been in love and experienced it first hand. As you deny all human feelings exist, it isn't going to happen to you hun. That's too bad for you. Ps. Sang- love is not just a good feeling, it involves all sorts of complications which can cause people to be depressed, too.  

[Sanguvixen]

Muaethia

Look, I can see you're not going to be persuaded on this one. Basically, you're never going to understand love unless you've been in love and experienced it first hand. As you deny all human feelings exist, it isn't going to happen to you hun. That's too bad for you. Ps. Sang- love is not just a good feeling, it involves all sorts of complications which can cause people to be depressed, too.

Love is what you make it out to be. All emotions and all feelings are only what you make them.

To some it is real, and important to have it in thier lives.

To others it is abstract, and not as important.

Does it really matter how one precieves feelings? No it doesn't.

Yes I know love can have bad feelings too. Feelings such as hurt, when you love something, and then you lose what you love.

When you look at all the other complex emotions that can spawn from love it makes you wonder if its really just chemical reations or if it is something deeper, or pyschological.

From love can spawn hate, jealousy, guilt, fear, and mourning. I'm not ready yet to cast such a complex thing into a simplistic explanation as "They are all just chemical reactions in your head."

 

[Dread Dionaea]

anon_nymouz

What could you possibly see as positive in someone who "hates", then?

Well, for one, if you hate someone chances are they've wronged you. Hurting another human being will often cause resentment on part of the victim and this resentment will actually raise your awareness of your surroundings. This distrust will help you in future high-risk situations.
Let's take the subject of sibling rivalry as an example. While in many families siblings are more or less compatible, in others one is greatly favored by the parents over the other(s). This will lower the survivability of the unfavored. Food, posessions, room to grow, and attention will be unfairly allocated and more often than not the favored sibling will exert athority over the ignored.
When in that situation, the resentment that builds teaches the unfavored to rely on themselves for the care that they are not being allocated. Many unfavored siblings later become very sucessful because that very "hate" and distrust teaches them far earlier in life how to survive alone.
Add to that actual, dangerous enemies and rivals and you begin to see the role hatred plays in the environment. Now, racial hatred is completely unfounded and rediculous and makes no sense at all in the modern era. Distrust of white people specifically came about when our anscestors conquered and ruined many otherwise sucessful cultures that were at an unfair disadvantage. For quite a while, and sadly some even today, that distrust the other cultures had of us was beneficial to their growth. Now that most thinking people can see that the differences are skin-deep only it's changing. It's just like any other evolutionary process.