Isildur and the Dead

[Tirno]

I was just wondering how the curse of Isildur, a mere man, had the power to keep the spirits of Men of the White Mountains from leaving the Circles of the World; not even the Valar had that power.  

[Thaxul]

I always wondered that myself. But I have really no clue as to how... *passes on the question to next person*  

[Serni]

I wish I knew the answer to this too. It does seem pretty far fetched.  

[Onoj]

This is how I have always seen it *crappy movie reference* but it is kind of like Casper. Spirits wait in the world until all their business is finished *speculation* and so when Isildur cursed them he put a guilt so heavy on their shoulders that they refused to leave until they could repay the debt as they would never rest in peace with all that guilt on their shoulders. Does that make any sense?  

[Tirno]

Onoj

This is how I have always seen it *crappy movie reference* but it is kind of like Casper. Spirits wait in the world until all their business is finished *speculation* and so when Isildur cursed them he put a guilt so heavy on their shoulders that they refused to leave until they could repay the debt as they would never rest in peace with all that guilt on their shoulders. Does that make any sense?

Hmm, I still think it's pretty unprecedented that the Gift of Men was withheld from the Men of the Mountain, whether by their will or not. I can only think of Beren and the Ringwraiths, but Beren's case was intervention by Eru and the Nazgul were bound by the Ring.  

[Falathrim]

Only Iluvatar can withhold the Gift of Death. Naturally, it follows that Iluvatar is behind the Dead in some manner.  

[Onoj]

Falathrim

Only Iluvatar can withhold the Gift of Death. Naturally, it follows that Iluvatar is behind the Dead in some manner.

He was probably just being pissy.  

[Tirno]

Falathrim

Only Iluvatar can withhold the Gift of Death. Naturally, it follows that Iluvatar is behind the Dead in some manner.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It sorta fits; one (attested) divine intervention per Age.  

[SYFFER]

In my opinion, by cursing the men of the white mountains, Isildur did not need any powers or gifts. In Tolkien's world, an oath means a hell of alot more than it does in ours. If you sware your allegiance to someone, you are giving yourself to that person fully and breaking such an oath will result in dishonor.

When Feanor and his sons swore their oath, they placed Manwe and Varda as "witnesses" which means that breaking their oath would result in their shame and the Gods would reject them.

In conclusion. The Men of the white mountains were bound by their oath and they may not be released until they fullfill it.  

[Tirno]

SYFFER

In my opinion, by cursing the men of the white mountains, Isildur did not need any powers or gifts. In Tolkien's world, an oath means a hell of alot more than it does in ours. If you sware your allegiance to someone, you are giving yourself to that person fully and breaking such an oath will result in dishonor.

When Feanor and his sons swore their oath, they placed Manwe and Varda as "witnesses" which means that breaking their oath would result in their shame and the Gods would reject them.

In conclusion. The Men of the white mountains were bound by their oath and they may not be released until they fullfill it.

But oath or no oath, the Gift of Men is under Iluvatar's power only. Feanor's Oath had terrible but limited effects.  

[cattirun]

well.. considering that honor is such an important thing in middle earth and they didn't fullfilled their oath when gondor needed them the most well, they couldn't just go and die and spend their rest of their times as souls in mandos' halls... that wouldn't be fitting.. the men of the mountains weren't creatures of pure evil..so they had to fullfill their oath before leaving; and yeah, maybe eru did let them stay there till they fullfilled their oath given the circumstances. That's just my theory  

[altairabove]

[ Message temporarily off-line ]  

[Tirno]

altairabove

You don't need to be Eru to have people linger on in the mortal world. They would have eventually found true death with or without the oath being fulfilled when the world ended (or perhaps with the death of Isildur's line.) Eru is needed only to change the rules on a more absolute level.

Uh, yeah you do. See the story of Beren and Luthien. Beren tarried for a while in the Halls of Mandos, but only Eru's intervention kept him from having to leave the world. Both ways, Beren would have found death, but merely postponing it took full divine intervention.  

[altairabove]

Tirno

altairabove

You don't need to be Eru to have people linger on in the mortal world. They would have eventually found true death with or without the oath being fulfilled when the world ended (or perhaps with the death of Isildur's line.) Eru is needed only to change the rules on a more absolute level.

Uh, yeah you do. See the story of Beren and Luthien. Beren tarried for a while in the Halls of Mandos, but only Eru's intervention kept him from having to leave the world. Both ways, Beren would have found death, but merely postponing it took full divine intervention.

Hmm... You have a good point there. I could be picky and say that the spirits never made it to the undying lands, but that doesn't really help much. It can be said that there was ever only one power unique to Eru: the secret fire. All other powers were 'available' to those in the world. I understand that bringing a spirit back from the Halls of Mandos is pretty darned tough (the Valar certainly didn't want to try, though whether or not it was in their power is unknown). Perhaps keeping spirits around before they get sent there is easier and within the realm of possibility.  

[SYFFER]

Hmmm that's interesting. So if Aragorn had died before the battle of Pellenor fields and had not released them, would the Men of the mountains simply remain in Middle-earth forever?