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 Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:20 pm
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And I'm saying this from first hand experience
The primary reason that there's so much conflict between the Christian and Secular communities stems, on our half anyway, from the direct claim that "The Bible is Wrong."
I'm just putting it out there now. I've seen things from the entirely opposite viewpoint, and one of the major causes for the above, is that the Bible, usually the religion its self, is directly linked in most minds to morality.
From this, it's very easy to derive the result of "Godless, UNETHICAL heathens", which tends to fly around quite a bit. Now, while there is more than enough controversy to go around, the portions of the Bible that are preached in church, usually unlike what we've come to associate with the Sunday sermon, are generally either moral in nature (often good), hope-giving messages, or harmless philosophy.
It's easy to see our cause for attacking the Christian side, but it gets a blurry when we try to see all that we've done wrong ourselves. I think it would be a good idea to tone down hostilities where they aren't outright provoked in the first place, lest we reinforce those "few loud voices" that we catch so much trouble for. Mind you, this doesn't go for everyone in this guild, nor does it apply only within the guild. It's just something that has become apparent to me in recent months.
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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:47 am
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It is true that part of the conflict is created by us. Then again, many of us just want to be left alone. We don't want to have our lives or our rights infringed upon by those who think thier basis for morals are better than ours.
Granted I think that when not provoked, a dragon should be left sleeping. Christianity and Athiesm are like two opposing dragons. When they meet and butt heads it gets ugly. When they ignore each other it works out fine. There might be a few growls here and there, but that is just to signal to the other "Leave me alone, keep your distance, and we'll be fine."
Theists and Christians need to stop attacking people, or trouncing on them for being "Atheist or Agnostic".
Athiests need to stop trouncing on people for being religious. So long as those theists are not trying to interfere with you, your life, or your happiness than let sleeping dragons lie.
However, when one dragon says to the other "I'm a [insert religion here], and I don't like you not believing in my god. So I'm going to harrass you, verbally rape you, stalk you, and insert my religion into laws to govern you"....the opposing "Atheistic" dragon should rear back and defend his or her self. He or she has to. Nobody has the right to trounce on others just because they are different.
That said if one dragons says to the other "I'm a [Insert religion here] and I go to [insert name of church]. What about you?" than the other dragon(who happens to be atheist) should not react by saying "You go to church? Well, you're deluded! There is not god! No go away you Bible Thumper!" The theist's question was friendly, and so the other dragon should be friendly back. Maybe say something like: "Well, I don't believe in religion, and so I don't go to church." If the theist attacks the atheist...well that is a different story. The dragon should defend his or her self, but not the point of offending and attacking the other person, because by doing so they are stooping to the low level of the theist.
The bottom line is that both parties should be able to recognize that it is okay to be different, and that you have no right to trounce on those who are different. Different is what everyone is. Everyone is different, and that makes us all the same.
The thing is that in real life dragons don't exist, and a common sense of decency isn't always there when it comes to humanity. That is how I view things. |
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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:12 pm
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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:27 pm
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Arios V Your both right. On one side we should keep our mouths shut at times and avoid creating unnecessary conflict. On the other, we do need to be vocal and let others know not to infringe upon our rights and such. I wish that atheists and religious people could find some middle ground, but alas it shall never happen, as it is human nature to try and express dominance over one another
The thing is, and I notice this a lot, is that Atheists don't only open thier mouths to let others know not to infringe upon thier rights alone. They will open thier mouths to tell others not to infringe upon the rights of those who happen to have different religious opinions or beliefs. Half the time we become vocal when one group decides that they are going to do something, but that something infringes upon the rights of others who have different religious beliefs.
So we're not just looking out for ourselfs. We are looking out for others, like us, who just happen to believe in something different. So we try to make things better for everyone, by promoting tolerence, and opposing those who oppose tolerance.
Yet...when people do things that help promote tolerence it is the Christians who begin making a fuss claiming that they are being oppressed and persecuted. They have this "Me me me me" philopshy where everyone should tolerate the Christian belief, and cater to it.
It's like many of them expect special treatment for being religious. What do you want...a cookie or something?
The most recent situation that I know of in my area is the College of William and Mary. There is a chapel there and it used to be used long ago as a place of worship for those who are in denominations that use the
Bible. So there is a cross there. Correction..was there.
The chapel is a part of the College. It is currrently being used by people who have all sorts of different beliefs. People go there to study, and to find quiet time. Now one of the top dogs who runs the entire place thought that having a Cross in that chapel sort of contridicted what his college promotes. So he decided to have it taken down to promote the college as being very open to all people of all faiths.
You know, times change. I don't see how taking the cross really affects anything, but the idea behind it is very...applaudable. The mentality, the psychology behind it...we need more of that in our world.
What did he get from the basic act of having the cross removed? What he got was hundreds of people rabid over the cross's removal. They claimed that he was "oppressing christians"....and that the removal of the cross was a slap in the face to all those who are Christian. I'm like...WTF? What is up with this?
Because of this...outrage on the behalf of "Christians" he has amended things so that that cross is put back up during Sundays, and Weddings for those who request it.
It's all so childish. Everything doesn't revolve around Christianity, and it is this mentality that is drilled into people's heads that you have to cater to Christians that sometimes puts Atheists in the defense. If you try to be more tolerent towards all religions and faiths through your words and actions you end up with one group with a "Me" mentality attacking you. So you either cater to one group only, and forget about all others, or cater too all and be trounced upon by one big one. That's just wrong, in my eyes. It shouldn't be like that. |
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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:39 pm
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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:59 pm
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Sanguvixen Arios V Your both right. On one side we should keep our mouths shut at times and avoid creating unnecessary conflict. On the other, we do need to be vocal and let others know not to infringe upon our rights and such. I wish that atheists and religious people could find some middle ground, but alas it shall never happen, as it is human nature to try and express dominance over one another The thing is, and I notice this a lot, is that Atheists don't only open thier mouths to let others know not to infringe upon thier rights alone. They will open thier mouths to tell others not to infringe upon the rights of those who happen to have different religious opinions or beliefs. Half the time we become vocal when one group decides that they are going to do something, but that something infringes upon the rights of others who have different religious beliefs.
So we're not just looking out for ourselfs. We are looking out for others, like us, who just happen to believe in something different. So we try to make things better for everyone, by promoting tolerence, and opposing those who oppose tolerance.
Yet...when people do things that help promote tolerence it is the Christians who begin making a fuss claiming that they are being oppressed and persecuted. They have this "Me me me me" philopshy where everyone should tolerate the Christian belief, and cater to it.
It's like many of them expect special treatment for being religious. What do you want...a cookie or something?
The most recent situation that I know of in my area is the College of William and Mary. There is a chapel there and it used to be used long ago as a place of worship for those who are in denominations that use the
Bible. So there is a cross there. Correction..was there.
The chapel is a part of the College. It is currrently being used by people who have all sorts of different beliefs. People go there to study, and to find quiet time. Now one of the top dogs who runs the entire place thought that having a Cross in that chapel sort of contridicted what his college promotes. So he decided to have it taken down to promote the college as being very open to all people of all faiths.
You know, times change. I don't see how taking the cross really affects anything, but the idea behind it is very...applaudable. The mentality, the psychology behind it...we need more of that in our world.
What did he get from the basic act of having the cross removed? What he got was hundreds of people rabid over the cross's removal. They claimed that he was "oppressing christians"....and that the removal of the cross was a slap in the face to all those who are Christian. I'm like...WTF? What is up with this?
Because of this...outrage on the behalf of "Christians" he has amended things so that that cross is put back up during Sundays, and Weddings for those who request it.
It's all so childish. Everything doesn't revolve around Christianity, and it is this mentality that is drilled into people's heads that you have to cater to Christians that sometimes puts Atheists in the defense. If you try to be more tolerent towards all religions and faiths through your words and actions you end up with one group with a "Me" mentality attacking you. So you either cater to one group only, and forget about all others, or cater too all and be trounced upon by one big one. That's just wrong, in my eyes. It shouldn't be like that.
Two things:
1: Glad to meet another Gaian from the Commonwealth of Virginia. I'm from Northern Virginia (Herndon, right near Fairfax, Dulles Airport and George Mason University)
2: I agree with what you said 100%, I go around and tell people to respect the rights and beliefs of others (I mean it is part of the "Golden Rule" after all.) and tell them to be tolerant even if you don't like it. Yet every time the Christian population takes offense to it and starts making it hard for everyone until they get what they want. The thing at William & Mary is a perfect example. The days of the Chapel being a religious location have long gone. I commend the man who took the initiative to show the world that William & Mary has moved past the days of being mainly Christian and wholeheartedly welcomes people from all walks of life regardless. Yet once again the Christians have to whine and complain whenever something isn't benefiting them.
Also, I agree, things shouldn't be like that. However, the sad, sad truth is that it's true, and it appears that humanity will never surmount that obstacle |
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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:18 pm
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Arios V Sanguvixen Arios V Your both right. On one side we should keep our mouths shut at times and avoid creating unnecessary conflict. On the other, we do need to be vocal and let others know not to infringe upon our rights and such. I wish that atheists and religious people could find some middle ground, but alas it shall never happen, as it is human nature to try and express dominance over one another The thing is, and I notice this a lot, is that Atheists don't only open thier mouths to let others know not to infringe upon thier rights alone. They will open thier mouths to tell others not to infringe upon the rights of those who happen to have different religious opinions or beliefs. Half the time we become vocal when one group decides that they are going to do something, but that something infringes upon the rights of others who have different religious beliefs.
So we're not just looking out for ourselfs. We are looking out for others, like us, who just happen to believe in something different. So we try to make things better for everyone, by promoting tolerence, and opposing those who oppose tolerance.
Yet...when people do things that help promote tolerence it is the Christians who begin making a fuss claiming that they are being oppressed and persecuted. They have this "Me me me me" philopshy where everyone should tolerate the Christian belief, and cater to it.
It's like many of them expect special treatment for being religious. What do you want...a cookie or something?
The most recent situation that I know of in my area is the College of William and Mary. There is a chapel there and it used to be used long ago as a place of worship for those who are in denominations that use the
Bible. So there is a cross there. Correction..was there.
The chapel is a part of the College. It is currrently being used by people who have all sorts of different beliefs. People go there to study, and to find quiet time. Now one of the top dogs who runs the entire place thought that having a Cross in that chapel sort of contridicted what his college promotes. So he decided to have it taken down to promote the college as being very open to all people of all faiths.
You know, times change. I don't see how taking the cross really affects anything, but the idea behind it is very...applaudable. The mentality, the psychology behind it...we need more of that in our world.
What did he get from the basic act of having the cross removed? What he got was hundreds of people rabid over the cross's removal. They claimed that he was "oppressing christians"....and that the removal of the cross was a slap in the face to all those who are Christian. I'm like...WTF? What is up with this?
Because of this...outrage on the behalf of "Christians" he has amended things so that that cross is put back up during Sundays, and Weddings for those who request it.
It's all so childish. Everything doesn't revolve around Christianity, and it is this mentality that is drilled into people's heads that you have to cater to Christians that sometimes puts Atheists in the defense. If you try to be more tolerent towards all religions and faiths through your words and actions you end up with one group with a "Me" mentality attacking you. So you either cater to one group only, and forget about all others, or cater too all and be trounced upon by one big one. That's just wrong, in my eyes. It shouldn't be like that. Two things: 1: Glad to meet another Gaian from the Commonwealth of Virginia. I'm from Northern Virginia (Herndon, right near Fairfax, Dulles Airport and George Mason University) 2: I agree with what you said 100%, I go around and tell people to respect the rights and beliefs of others (I mean it is part of the "Golden Rule" after all.) and tell them to be tolerant even if you don't like it. Yet every time the Christian population takes offense to it and starts making it hard for everyone until they get what they want. The thing at William & Mary is a perfect example. The days of the Chapel being a religious location have long gone. I commend the man who took the initiative to show the world that William & Mary has moved past the days of being mainly Christian and wholeheartedly welcomes people from all walks of life regardless. Yet once again the Christians have to whine and complain whenever something isn't benefiting them. Also, I agree, things shouldn't be like that. However, the sad, sad truth is that it's true, and it appears that humanity will never surmount that obstacle
Wow...you're way up there. I'm more near the bottom of the state, near the coast. I live in a city near Virginia Beach, but I won't say where. It's not smart to do that online. Yeppers, isn't it wonderful to live in the Commonweath? You get taxed for every single thing imaginable. domokun
I hate the commowealth. burning_eyes
Well...you can't expect to get anywhere in life if you expect everyone to cater to you, and expect everyone to oppose everything you just happen to not like, or agree with. It didn't get Hazy anywhere when we were debating in a thread about Homosexuality(Check out my profile to see that amusing screenie) and it won't get you anywhere in real life either.
Yeah...I think eventually humanity will overcome the obsticle of intolerence associated with religion....they just have to not blow themselves up first. So long as we don't nuke ourselves into oblivion than we might be able to get somewhere.
If not the Cockroaches will rule the world, and thier religion will involve great big beings(gods) that made life easy for them. Thier heros of most roach religions will probably be brave roaches that plundered the homes of thier "Gods" |
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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:21 pm
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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:50 pm
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Sanguvixen Arios V Sanguvixen Arios V Your both right. On one side we should keep our mouths shut at times and avoid creating unnecessary conflict. On the other, we do need to be vocal and let others know not to infringe upon our rights and such. I wish that atheists and religious people could find some middle ground, but alas it shall never happen, as it is human nature to try and express dominance over one another The thing is, and I notice this a lot, is that Atheists don't only open thier mouths to let others know not to infringe upon thier rights alone. They will open thier mouths to tell others not to infringe upon the rights of those who happen to have different religious opinions or beliefs. Half the time we become vocal when one group decides that they are going to do something, but that something infringes upon the rights of others who have different religious beliefs.
So we're not just looking out for ourselfs. We are looking out for others, like us, who just happen to believe in something different. So we try to make things better for everyone, by promoting tolerence, and opposing those who oppose tolerance.
Yet...when people do things that help promote tolerence it is the Christians who begin making a fuss claiming that they are being oppressed and persecuted. They have this "Me me me me" philopshy where everyone should tolerate the Christian belief, and cater to it.
It's like many of them expect special treatment for being religious. What do you want...a cookie or something?
The most recent situation that I know of in my area is the College of William and Mary. There is a chapel there and it used to be used long ago as a place of worship for those who are in denominations that use the
Bible. So there is a cross there. Correction..was there.
The chapel is a part of the College. It is currrently being used by people who have all sorts of different beliefs. People go there to study, and to find quiet time. Now one of the top dogs who runs the entire place thought that having a Cross in that chapel sort of contridicted what his college promotes. So he decided to have it taken down to promote the college as being very open to all people of all faiths.
You know, times change. I don't see how taking the cross really affects anything, but the idea behind it is very...applaudable. The mentality, the psychology behind it...we need more of that in our world.
What did he get from the basic act of having the cross removed? What he got was hundreds of people rabid over the cross's removal. They claimed that he was "oppressing christians"....and that the removal of the cross was a slap in the face to all those who are Christian. I'm like...WTF? What is up with this?
Because of this...outrage on the behalf of "Christians" he has amended things so that that cross is put back up during Sundays, and Weddings for those who request it.
It's all so childish. Everything doesn't revolve around Christianity, and it is this mentality that is drilled into people's heads that you have to cater to Christians that sometimes puts Atheists in the defense. If you try to be more tolerent towards all religions and faiths through your words and actions you end up with one group with a "Me" mentality attacking you. So you either cater to one group only, and forget about all others, or cater too all and be trounced upon by one big one. That's just wrong, in my eyes. It shouldn't be like that. Two things: 1: Glad to meet another Gaian from the Commonwealth of Virginia. I'm from Northern Virginia (Herndon, right near Fairfax, Dulles Airport and George Mason University) 2: I agree with what you said 100%, I go around and tell people to respect the rights and beliefs of others (I mean it is part of the "Golden Rule" after all.) and tell them to be tolerant even if you don't like it. Yet every time the Christian population takes offense to it and starts making it hard for everyone until they get what they want. The thing at William & Mary is a perfect example. The days of the Chapel being a religious location have long gone. I commend the man who took the initiative to show the world that William & Mary has moved past the days of being mainly Christian and wholeheartedly welcomes people from all walks of life regardless. Yet once again the Christians have to whine and complain whenever something isn't benefiting them. Also, I agree, things shouldn't be like that. However, the sad, sad truth is that it's true, and it appears that humanity will never surmount that obstacle Wow...you're way up there. I'm more near the bottom of the state, near the coast. I live in a city near Virginia Beach, but I won't say where. It's not smart to do that online. Yeppers, isn't it wonderful to live in the Commonweath? You get taxed for every single thing imaginable. domokun
I hate the commowealth. burning_eyes
Well...you can't expect to get anywhere in life if you expect everyone to cater to you, and expect everyone to oppose everything you just happen to not like, or agree with. It didn't get Hazy anywhere when we were debating in a thread about Homosexuality(Check out my profile to see that amusing screenie) and it won't get you anywhere in real life either.
Yeah...I think eventually humanity will overcome the obsticle of intolerence associated with religion....they just have to not blow themselves up first. So long as we don't nuke ourselves into oblivion than we might be able to get somewhere.
If not the Cockroaches will rule the world, and thier religion will involve great big beings(gods) that made life easy for them. Thier heros of most roach religions will probably be brave roaches that plundered the homes of thier "Gods"
Well, as soon as Northern VA becomes it's own state, you can move up here, sure it'll be much better than the rest of the Commonwealth.
I still have many things to learn before I can call myself wise, thus I shall read and learn from people here, maybe one day I shall become wise and actually have something profound to say. |
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