Death penalty, abortion, and the only life we have.

[Dread Dionaea]

I can't be the only one here who believes that life is beautiful and worth preserving. I can't be the only atheist who treasures this, our only life, for what it is. I certainly can't be the only one who believes that everyone deserves a chance at success and happiness. I want my only life to be joyful. If I want to do that with sex and booze, then who am I hurting? If I want to do it by going out of my way to help people, why do I have to be religious for it to matter?

My philosophy is not so much hedonism as it is pure joy, pure happiness for everyone. Yes, some people have done some terrible things. In those cases, they've chosen to spend their one chance removing or tainting others'. They should, in many cases, be put down in return. I firmly think this.

On the other hand, I oppose aborting. No, I don't think it should be made illegal. What I do think is that governments should provide for the poor and downtrodden. Give them the money, the resources, the options to pursue happiness and education and not remove someone's chance at life before it has even begun.

What I'm asking is, other atheists, do you think that this one and only life should be celebrated and enjoyed? Do you care if other people get a chance at happiness or is yours all that matters? Is it just as important to you to step outside of faith not just for personal denial of God as it is to step outside of the oppression of religion? Do you passionately think that as our own masters of fate we should care for others as well as ourselves? Or do you see a lack of divine mastery as an excuse to be an a*****e?

What I'm basically asking is...are Christians right about us? Are we truly amoral? I disagree, but...I want to know what y'all think.  

[Tenth Speed Writer]

Mentioning any group of more than one person in reference to morals is a gross generalization.  

[Dread Dionaea]

Explain further, please?

Basically this topic was a mental dump and I'm not really sure where I was going, anyway.  

[LadyDarcia]

Dread Dionaea

Yes, some people have done some terrible things. In those cases, they've chosen to spend their one chance removing or tainting others'. They should, in many cases, be put down in return. I firmly think this.

I have to disagree with Capital Punishment not just because I am morally opposed to it, but because our laws shouldn't be about "I think s/he doesn't deserve to live, so OFF WITH THEIR HEAD LOL." Also, the racial and economic bias, lack of deterrence, cost, number of innocents and mentally ill/retarded executed/spending several years on Death Row, and the fact that many jurors don't know what the hell they're doing.

I really, really don't feel like giving specific links right now, so here's a neutral website with available info to browse at your leisure: www.deathpenaltyinfo.org

I might come back and get specific pages later.

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On the other hand, I oppose aborting. No, I don't think it should be made illegal. What I do think is that governments should provide for the poor and downtrodden. Give them the money, the resources, the options to pursue happiness and education and not remove someone's chance at life before it has even begun.

As long as you don't want to make it illegal, you won't hear me complaining much.
 

[Arios V]

I appreciate life as well, it is a marvelous gift that one shouldn't squander or waste. But I do think that people should be able to run their lives the way they want. If they want to destroy their lives, let them, just so long as it's not destroying the lives of others.

While I do think that Capital Punishment can be a little harsh in same cases, I do agree that under certain circumstances, like if someone brutally murders two dozen people with flagrant disregard for human life and shows absolutely no remorse whatsoever for the action. Then I would say that Capital Punishment could be acceptable. Life Imprisonment is in a roundabout way the same thing as Capital Punishment and is actually worse than the Death Penalty. Eventually you're gonna die, however it will be much slower and in fact more painful than having your life ended quickly and relatively pain free.

My stance on abortion is it should be legal under all circumstances. For the first few weeks it's no more than a collection of sub-dividing cells that doesn't even look like a human. Heck, You'd kill more cells just by scratching your nose for a few seconds.  

[=X-Sparker + AquaKiller=]

look, many of the people who need abortion because they're too young don't care. it's not us who don't care, it's themselves. i'm sure many people cared, their parents, friends and relatives certainly had tried to teach them the right way and tried to prevent them from wrongdoings, but when it comes down to the end, they chose the option to do something wrong and they just had to pay for it.

And the truth is, everyone's happiness is somehow on the expense of others, meaning as long as you're living, you will somehow affect a person, making him/her less able to live. well obviously it's not a big problem, but if you really wanna say pure happiness for everyone, that's more or less impossible.

Plus, do you really think the government have enough money to give to all the poors? Even if it does, it's not right to do so. In my opinion, only people who are disabled or not able to work have the right to receive money from the government, because they want to work, they just can't. Instead, there are so many people who have a perfectly fit body, a body that can actually go work in a job and yet they don't because opening their palms and receiving money from others and the government is so much easier. I seriously don't think the government should help people like that.  

[Spooky Electric]

Abortion should always be legal under every circumstance, there is no justification for forcing someone to sacrifice their rights for the well-being of what for a long time amounts to nothing more than a clump of cells.

I don't buy the 'destroying a life before it has a chance to live' argument.. thing.. because the phrase 'potential life' can apply to so many different microorganisms it's just ridiculous.  

[Dread Dionaea]

I'm not saying I want it to be illegal, and frankly in my opinion it applies only to aware, sentient, or multicellular organisms. They'd be aware of the lack of life, therefore it's worth preserving.  

[AnonymouZ]

Spooky Electric

Abortion should always be legal under every circumstance, there is no justification for forcing someone to sacrifice their rights for the well-being of what for a long time amounts to nothing more than a clump of cells.

I don't buy the 'destroying a life before it has a chance to live' argument.. thing.. because the phrase 'potential life' can apply to so many different microorganisms it's just ridiculous.

But this specific "clump of cells", given the chance, could develop a HUMAN specimen. Just because it doesn't show any signs of it doesn't mean it won't.

I may respect a "choice" of a woman... but then again, what "CHOICE" is this clump of cells given? We all know that this zygote is not gonna develop into a brainless puppy or a rhino, so that bullshit of "it" applying to many different microorganisms does not hold ground in this argument. Besides... it's not like those cells are gonna stay that way for the rest of 8-9 months.

But then we look at the conditions on which these "cells" would be born... right?
"abortion is good cuz we can't afford a baby", "abortion is good cuz it's gonna be raised in a ******** up environment"

BULLSHIT! You could put the "cells" on adoption, right after you DEAL with the consequences of UNPROTECTED SEX. Here's where the gov't should be more proactive however... since it does not provide sufficient help to little dumbasses who get pregnant (boy and girl implied) and didn't know what they were getting into. And don't dare to use the "it's my raper's baby" thing, cuz we know, that out of the 10 "cells" aborted today, 8 (or even 9) have NO relation to rape situations.

I agree with the death penalty however. But only for special ocassions such as raping of kids, (note: raping not molesting, molesters can stay off in a cell for the rest of their life for all i care) raping of any kind, and really violent messy stuff. If they are already ******** up, why waste money on keeping them alive if we know they are brutal killers? ******** that. Give'm death! I say.  

[freak0592]

I, personally, believe that abortion should be legal...no exceptions. Many people say, "Oh, only if the mother or baby will be hurt". I think that if the mother doesn't want it then she shouldn't have to keep it. What kinda life will that baby have once it is born? I mean, if the mother doesn't want it then it will have one crappy life if it is born! So, not to sound harsh, but I think the baby was better off not living, then living with a mother who regrets its birth.

People make mistakes...Their lives shouldn't be ruined just because they HAVE TO bring another life into this world. If they want to, good for them. If they don't, I support their choice. Whether or not it was due to their own stupidity (unprotected sex), or something they had no control over (the condom broke), I feel it is their choice and we have no right to say whether that is right or wrong.

Sure, this thing had a chance to live...But, at the time of abortion, it was not living. So this is not "murder", as some like to call it.  

[Becka Minato]

Abortion is a really a touchy subject, but I believe it should be allowed. If a woman doesn't want to have a child, then she shouldn't have to have it. As long as its done before the baby is 4 months or older, then it should be allowed.  

[Theophrastus]

Abortion should be legal.

We're all here by what effectively amounts to chance. Not us as humans, but us as individuals. Don't take that statement as the devaluation of life - I definitely value my life and that of others.

That's why I don't want to subject my child to a sub-standard life. I can't afford a child. It could ruin my relationship with my girlfriend, leaving the child with a single parent. Growing up with that strife is horrible - trust me, I know. The child will always feel a little guilty about the breakup of the parents, because the parents often argue and invoke the child's name in that sort of separation/divorce.

Also, there are so many children in the world who are without parents. Why not adopt, when I'm ready to raise a child well, instead of bring yet another life into the world? Sounds selfish, in the right light, or at least ignorant of the needs of others.

The same logic follows that the death penalty is a correct response to murder and the intentional lethal endangerment of others' lives. Those of us who made it into the world need every chance we can get, and we don't need sociopaths and religious zealots terminating us for whatever arbitrary reason.

What's more, so much of our country's money that's going towards supporting imprisoned murderers could instead be spent on helping our country raise our kids and provide them with good educations.

I doubt you'd find anyone who feels it's more important to provide satellite tv to a convicted rapist than to give good food and education to a child.  

[LadyDarcia]

Sorry to single you out Anonymouz, but you're my only opposition right now, and I'm in a ED mood at the moment. smile


Quote:

But this specific "clump of cells", given the chance, could develop a HUMAN
specimen.

Yes. Yes it can. However, it isn't a human being yet. It has the potential to become one, but it isn't at the moment. Laws cannot be made on this type of potential.

Quote:

I may respect a "choice" of a woman... but then again, what "CHOICE" is this clump of cells given?

A fetus is no more capable of making a choice than someone who is brain dead.

Quote:

Besides... it's not like those cells are gonna stay that way for the rest of 8-9
months.

Again, this is potential. Sure, if I continue to go to law school I have the potential to become a lawyer, but that is no reason to give me my law degree now. Of course some random man in the ghetto who legally owns a gun has the potential to rob a liquor store, but we can't arrest him unless he does it.

Quote:

But then we look at the conditions on which these "cells" would be born... right? "abortion is good cuz we can't afford a baby", "abortion is good cuz it's gonna be raised in a ******** up environment"

Also for health reasons and possible mental trauma.

Quote:

BULLSHIT! You could put the "cells" on adoption, right after you DEAL with the consequences of UNPROTECTED SEX.

You've probably heard this before, but adoption does not solve unwanted pregnancy. Pregnancy and birth are significantly more dangerous and costly than abortion. As for unprotected sex, a large percentage of abortions are sought by women who did use protection. And I certainly hope you're not implying that women who have unprotected sex should be punished in some way (regardless of whether or not they’re pregnant).

Quote:

Here's where the gov't should be more proactive however... since it does not provide sufficient help to little dumbasses who get pregnant (boy and girl implied) and didn't know what they were getting into.

Indeed. Our sex education programs are laughably inefficient and uninformative.

Quote:

And don't dare to use the "it's my raper's baby" thing, cuz we know, that out of the 10 "cells" aborted today, 8 (or even 9) have NO relation to rape situations.

...And? You seem to be implying that women who are raped don't deserve benefits simply because they are the minority.

Quote:

I agree with the death penalty however. But only for special occasions such as raping of kids, (note: raping not molesting, molesters can stay off in a cell for the rest of their life for all I care) raping of any kind, and really violent messy stuff

What do you mean by "messy?" If one person shoots their victim, but another blows their victim's head of with a grenade, which one gets Capital Punishment?

Quote:

If they are already ******** up, why waste money on keeping them alive if we know they are brutal killers?

Because excluding the cost, racial bias, and inevitable execution on innocents, our legal system is not based on concepts such as revenge. (At least, it’s not supposed to be.)  

[Theophrastus]

 

[Foetus In Fetu]

In terms of abortion, I firmly believe that nobody should have their body co-opted if they don't want it to be. Nobody should be forced to use their body to support another person's life, if a blastocyst or fetus even qualifies as a "person".

It's an issue completely removed from sex. Consent to sex does not constitute consent to anything else, especially not anything that is not a direct consequence all of the time. There is no contract that you sign when you have sex that constitutes legal consent to being used as a life support system: the idea is ludicrous. It is sad that it comes to this, but there is no point at which the physical or "potential" needs of the fetus is worth more to me than the physical or psychological needs of a woman.

Death penalty: don't support it. Any chance of convicting somebody who is innocent, and there is always a chance, does not sit well with me.