Talked To A Born-Again

[ProjectOmicron88]

This was a few weeks ago, but I haven't regularly posted on Gaia in a long time.

I was stopped on my way across campus to lunch to get a delicious beef & cheddar sandwich at Arby's by a born-again Christian. The end of the discussion was him giving me a load of pamphlets about how to avoid eternal damnation and why premarital sex is immoral. There were a couple points I found interesting.

First of all, he asked me where I believe my sense of morality came from. I replied that since I'm a psych major, I believe you learn these things as a kid through positive reinforcement and social cues. He replied by saying God puts morals into us. Why do we have the Ten Commandments then? Did God not trust us enough to follow his moral code? I took a look at the pamphlet entitled "Safe Sex?" later on, and found that they called premarital sex "immoral". But if it feels right, doesn't that mean it IS right, and that God wants us to do it?

Second, in that same pamphlet, it talks about how the sinful culture of modern society promotes this supposedly false notion: "Having sex before marriage is alright as long as you protect yourself from disease and unwanted pregnancy." I read over it about five times, and failed to see anything wrong with that notion. Then I remembered: I got this from a Christian! It didn't have to make sense! The passage from the Bible they use to justify this is one in which God says you can go to hell for "sexual immorality". How exactly do you get "premarital sex" from THAT? Simple. These yackos used their OWN sense of morality and defined it as an absolute, like ignorant simps. I think "sexual immorality" means things like, oh, I dunno...rape? You know, things that are of much greater concern than whether you get nookie as a teenager. Also, they cite the commandment, "Thou shalt not commit adultery". This was just good, old-fashioned lying. Any middle school dictionary will tell you that adultery is extramarital sex, and not premarital sex.

Third, the pamphlet on how to avoid hell and how to get into heaven seemed more like threats and bribes, respectively. As though the intrinsic need for people to feel good by doing good was not a good enough motivator. What good are God's morals in our hearts if they have to be reinforced by the promise of everlasting euphoria in a city of gold, or the threat of burning forever in a lake of fire? The way the wording went, it was more like a vacation brochure or a sweepstakes flyer than an informative pamphlet. "Heaven: It's Real and it Can Be Yours!"

Lastly, the born-again talked about how there's no proof for evolution, and how something this perfect could not have arisen by chance. I had to restrain myself from laughing out loud and saying, "You think nature is perfect?" In all honesty, someone screwed up if this was intelligently designed. Why do men have nipples? Why don't trees grow straight up? Why is there more than one kind of tree? Why do we have animals that are absolutely useless? (read: raccoons, mosquitos, and octopi) Evolution may not have proof, but it has evidence. That's the beauty of the scientific method. It's a self-perpetuating system. Theories are tested, re-tested, and re-tested again. If the theory can be improved, it will be improved. If it can't, people come up with something better, which is then also tested and re-tested. So with this system, how has the theory of evolution been around so long? Because it fits.

I listened to this guy for a good twenty minutes before I said farewell and went to get my sandwich. I learned a lot about Christianity that day, and it made me even more proud to be atheist.  

[AnonymouZ]

What would happen next in the mind of the christian? Would there be questions as to how something "so evident" did not make sense to you? Would he instead think that maybe it's the devil that is still getting a hold of your mind and thus you doubt and "neglect" the teachings..?

In any case, i could never imagine having a conversation with a christian outside of my circle of "friends." I once talked to a christian woman, mother's friend, and i'm glad i was still doubtful of her garbage back then (i was 16 i think.)

But i agree with you, being an atheist makes much more sense than babbling incoherences and call it "holy word."  

[ProjectOmicron88]

Really the only reason I had to stick around was because I was not in an arguing mood that day, and because I was genuinely interested in the same way I find Greek mythology interesting. I gave him his fair share of points, but I was mainly listening to learn more about it, and perhaps, at one point in the future, argue more effectively with this newfound knowledge.  

[Theophrastus]

ProjectOmicron88

Second, in that same pamphlet, it talks about how the sinful culture of modern society promotes this supposedly false notion: "Having sex before marriage is alright as long as you protect yourself from disease and unwanted pregnancy." I read over it about five times, and failed to see anything wrong with that notion. Then I remembered: I got this from a Christian! It didn't have to make sense! The passage from the Bible they use to justify this is one in which God says you can go to hell for "sexual immorality". How exactly do you get "premarital sex" from THAT? Simple. These yackos used their OWN sense of morality and defined it as an absolute, like ignorant simps. I think "sexual immorality" means things like, oh, I dunno...rape? You know, things that are of much greater concern than whether you get nookie as a teenager. Also, they cite the commandment, "Thou shalt not commit adultery". This was just good, old-fashioned lying. Any middle school dictionary will tell you that adultery is extramarital sex, and not premarital sex.

It's always good to see your posts. I bet if we met in real life you and I could be good chums.

Anyways, regarding the above of adultery, the Christian definition of adultery is far different from the real world version.

In the real world, adultery is having emotional or sexual relations with a person who is not the one to whom you're married. And that's the definition to which you, I and most of the world subscribe.

However, my past gave me a great insider's view on such matters. The Christian definition of adultery is adultery of the heart. The belief behind it is that God will bring you together with your spouse, as he is in control of all things. So if you marry a person, then have sex with them, the union is blessed by God and it's okay. But if you have premarital sex, and then end up marrying someone else, then you have committed adultery against someone you'll meet in the future. Also, adultery is an Orwellian Thought Crime according to the Bible, so if you even lust after a person to whom you're not married, whether or not you ever do eventually get married, you are committing adultery.

Hope that makes clear just what a guilt culture Christianity has built.  

[=X-Sparker + AquaKiller=]

ProjectOmicron88

"Having sex before marriage is alright as long as you protect yourself from disease and unwanted pregnancy." I read over it about five times, and failed to see anything wrong with that notion.

I raise my hands and toes to agree!

Nature isn't perfect, it's just running under the ultimate unbreakable law: equivalent exchange. For any individual, be it human or animal or plants or bacteria or fungi or dead matters, or even just elements, abiotic chemicals, as long as it's made out of atoms, for it to gain anything, it must sacrifice, or, put it easily: if you melt down 100g of steel bar you can only get 100g of melted steel, and remake it into anything with only 100g of steel, no more, no less.  

[ProjectOmicron88]

Theophrastus

It's always good to see your posts. I bet if we met in real life you and I could be good chums.

Anyways, regarding the above of adultery, the Christian definition of adultery is far different from the real world version.

In the real world, adultery is having emotional or sexual relations with a person who is not the one to whom you're married. And that's the definition to which you, I and most of the world subscribe.

However, my past gave me a great insider's view on such matters. The Christian definition of adultery is adultery of the heart. The belief behind it is that God will bring you together with your spouse, as he is in control of all things. So if you marry a person, then have sex with them, the union is blessed by God and it's okay. But if you have premarital sex, and then end up marrying someone else, then you have committed adultery against someone you'll meet in the future. Also, adultery is an Orwellian Thought Crime according to the Bible, so if you even lust after a person to whom you're not married, whether or not you ever do eventually get married, you are committing adultery.

Hope that makes clear just what a guilt culture Christianity has built.

I think it's more along the lines of changing things to fit with what people WANT to see, rather than what the intended meaning was. It's common knowledge that the Bible was written in Hebrew, and that is, in fact, a very different language from English, especially the old Biblical dialects that were used. Even today, language can vary greatly. "Esposa" is a Spanish word that can mean either "wife" or "handcuffs", which I've always found hilarious. The point is that the different translations can be twisted to make them into what people want to see.  

[Theophrastus]

On Atheist Nation there's a neat video made by a Christian theologian that's about an hour and a half long. It tracks the authorship of the Bible and even he, while still holding to his beliefs, can't say that the Bible is a perfect book. He even openly deplores the mistranslations that have become part of the mainstream Bible and supposed canon of the 66 included books.  

[Sanguvixen]

Well, that is the thing about organized religion that makes me feel like that part of the magnet that pushes away. It's not the religion itself, it's not so much as what they teach...it's just the people and how they pervert ancient text and even history to suit thier fancy.

The Bible is just a book with many stories strung together. Some of the stories touch on real history, and then the rest is fantasy. It has been changed over and over again, and I've never met an honest theist who will claim otherwise, because they know the book has been changed too many times to be taken seriously. It is why many theists are beginning to turn away from strict interphretation of the Bible, and looking...to logic actually.

So all I can really say to this, is if a religion is basing thier do's and don'ts on an ancient book that has been changed over and over again to suit thier fancy...than all you can do is be pateint, not pay too much attention to them...be polite...and that is it. Which seems to be exactly what you did...which is nice. You can listen to them...and be civil, just don't take what they have to say too deeply to heart. You don't want to argue...because there is no point.

That is how they interphret thier text, and it may be wrong to you, and it may be false to you...but, oh well.

Of all the groups out there, Born Again Christians kind of irk me the most. It's a personal thing though...there is a reason many Born Again Christians believe to have seen "The Light" or actually been spoken to by a "God"....and it has something to do with drugs and alchohol. They are not all like that...it's just...I don't like those who tend to prey on the weak for the sake of followers.

 

[ProjectOmicron88]

Sangu, all that about the Bible being written and re-written by many different people was actually a major point in another pamphlet this guy gave me, "Is the Bible the Word of God?" In it, it says that the diversity of authorship over however many years meant that some divine inspiration had to be involved.

When I read that, however, I couldn't help but be reminded of how that's exactly the same thing as the Cthulhu mythos. Anyone familiar with Lovecraft's fictitious pantheon of elder demon gods from the stars knows that a myriad of other authors have written stories based largely upon Lovecraft's original Call of Cthulhu, all maintaining canon, but adding new things with each successive story, and often referencing each others' stories. This is really why I regard the Bible as little more than fiction, although it does have a certain sense of morality to it (don't kill, don't steal, etc.)  

[Jessica Malatori]

Gross, Arby's. Lmao xp  

[ProjectOmicron88]

Jessica Malatori

Gross, Arby's. Lmao xp

Beef 'n' Cheddar sandwiches are my happy medicine. And it's not a Beef 'n' Cheddar without that tangy red sauce they put on there.  

[Fuzzy Kittens]

ProjectOmicron88

Jessica Malatori

Gross, Arby's. Lmao xp

Beef 'n' Cheddar sandwiches are my happy medicine. And it's not a Beef 'n' Cheddar without that tangy red sauce they put on there.

And you can't beat that 5-for-5 deal.  

[Arios V]

((Pardon my absence, I've been away with personal issues and thinking about stuff.))

The notion of pre-martial sex:

1: It's not adultery despite what any of those Christians say. As said earlier Adultery by definition is having extra marital relations WHILE one is married not while one is not married.

2: I see no problem with having pre-marital sex as long as you use protection against unwanted pregnancies and STD's  

[Jessica Malatori]

ZeeFishee

ProjectOmicron88

Jessica Malatori

Gross, Arby's. Lmao xp

Beef 'n' Cheddar sandwiches are my happy medicine. And it's not a Beef 'n' Cheddar without that tangy red sauce they put on there.

And you can't beat that 5-for-5 deal.

That is like the only thing I will eat there... the Beef 'n' Cheddar sandwiches... everything else there used to be so good... but not anymore.