I don't know what to do.

[Tenth Speed Writer]

I suppose this is a request for advice.



A very dear friend of mine and I have just gotten out of another argument on AIM.

She's a very adamant Christian, you see. It's a cornerstone of her life.
Well, what happened, was that she had began talking to me of her religion. She became very passionate, and eventually claimed herself that she was 'inspired by God to witness to me.'


I've listened to what she said a thousand times before. It touches my heart when she says what she says, but I know it inside not to be true. What she doesn't understand is that as passionately as she feels, I do as well, just as much so. It's difficult not to let that seep back into my words when she's talking that way.


I'm afraid.. that I might soon enough say something that would utterly strip her of her faith. Yes, afraid I might. I know the person she is, and I know what it means to be pulled from something that gave your very life meaning and direction. I could take her away from what she believes in with one good conversation, or at least plant the seeds to do so.

I'm worried that I will. I'm worried that it would ruin her if she fell from faith, even at my hands, even being there every step of the way. It would mean taking away the basis for her very sense of meaning and morality.




Still.. I'm not sure how much longer I can keep that kind of tension out of our relationship. I dread ever losing her friendship, but..


Egh. What do y'all think?  

[God of lunchboxes]

You probably tried this but couldn't you just stop her when she talks about that sort of thing? It might irritate her a little but you won't get into an argument about it.  

[AnonymouZ]

heh heh. I always like it when us atheists think we're better than christians. I think you're just being arrogant, by thinking that she doesn't have enough wits to actually consider that her life has been based on a lie (or many intricated ones,) as opposed to you, who... i assumed you have them.
But... i also think you a moron. If only for the fact that you can't "plant atheistic seeds" in her mind without "taking away the basis for her very sense of meaning and morality." I would like to refer you to Dawkins book, "The God Delusion*" and maybe re-read it if you have already, since it seems, to me, that if there's anyone making it look as if there was no sense of meaning (even though we don't have a purpose, as atheists we should know what life is all about... : LIVING) and morality in being an atheist, it's gonna be YOU.

Then again, i don't blame you... since you "know what it means to be pulled from something that gave your very life meaning and direction," to which i hope you're not talking about dead relatives, and instead you're referring to you're being a "former" christian. And yeah... i don't blame you since it just seems awfully staunchingly clear to me, that if you had had the chance and go back in time, you'd GLADLY step back into a life of senseless adoration and meaningless prayers.

But in that view... i think that you should just go back to being a christian. That way you won't have to worry about depraving people of (your words) "something that gave your very life meaning and direction" and you could live your deluded lives happily ever after. Of course, if you know how to fight the devil and it's awful temptations. twisted


* I think that the chapter on morality is the best summary of his book "Unweaving the Rainbow." Otherwise, i would have suggested the reading of this book instead.

On a side note, if you really think that god's don't exist and that religion is not necessary, then go ahead and read both books before you actually start a conversation about religion ... WITH religious freaks. Or maybe... if you don't already, get a sense of meaning and direction and show it to the world... then you wouldn't have to talk to people... since they would just SEE how being an atheist doesn't deprive you of both.  

[Tenth Speed Writer]

She's not a "religious freak," and your wonderfully educated commentary on my life and nature are most appreciated.

You speak as though you're totally aware. You speak as though you know myself and her. You speak as one clinging to what they perceive to be a position of moral and philosophical superiority more desperately than a zealot.


I have known this woman for longer than I've been in this guild, and her case is far from unique. I will not simply blow off someone I love dearly simply to draw on the feelings of being "better" than her or anyone else. To be quite honest, I would much rather she life the rest of her life as a Christian and find what it means to be happy in that than have to go to through the utter hell of losing her religion.


At any rate. I was never a Christian. I was agnostic until I was fourteen, and I'd already picked my own holes in their theology. No, I've never lost that faith, as I've never had it, but I now know good and well what I cast aside, and I've seen what it is to have it torn away. I've known one who has died simply from the realization that she lived a lie. I've seen others who simply crumble and fall, never the same. Very few are strong enough to cast aside given meaning and reason in life in favor of forming. Not to stroke your ego, though. It would appear to me that you have simply embraced detest for religion as yours.  

[Arios V]

I went through this about 9 months ago. I was talking to a friend of mine. He was an adamant Christian whose whole life basically surrounded Christianity. Normally, we wouldn't talk about religion, but one night, we got to talking about religion. This night he tried to convert me and I told him to please don't start. It wasn't because I didn't want to hear what he had to say, it's just that I didn't want to start an argument. Well, it didn't work. He ended up rambling on and on about it. The amount of bullshit he kept spouting was just too much, so I asked him to cool it, because it would start an argument. He didn't stop, he only got worse, so I kinda cut loose and browbeat him intellectually. I suspected he left crying. After the fight, I felt like scum. We didn't speak for at least another 3 months.

However, after those 3 months passed he sent me an E-Mail. He said, that after the fight he was infuriated at me, and wanted to come back the next day and basically get me back. As he was looking through the Bible, he looked at all the passages I mentioned and all the things I said couldn't be true. He was dumbfounded at it, he saw exactly what I was saying and actually opened his eyes and realized that the Bible is a load of junk. He told me in that E-Mail that he became an agnostic (Much to the dismay of his family) and spent the 3 months adjusting to a new way of life. When I read that, I didn't know how to feel. Happy because I helped the man open his eyes or ashamed because I basically destroyed his world.

I'm sorry if that doesn't help any, it's just that your story reminded me of that. You may proceed in flaming my a**.  

[caustic 0_0]

I don't really know what to say. I fall somewhere between all of these responses. I'm a former christian, I once wanted to be a missionary or a preacher. I tried hard for a while to ignore any doubts I had. I read books and went to camps to hopefully make myself a better christian. But I didn't have a hard transition, I didn't feel I lived a lie. I just kind of realized my life was the same with or without because there was no real faith somewhere inside of me. But the idea of being connected to some superior force that can help you is enticing.
I am rambly tonight :] Anyways, if someone had a faith they felt a part of then it wouldn't be right to try to force them away. But you owe her enough as a friend to give her the option of hearing your views. Like if she wants to talk about it and ask questions or something, then go ahead, otherwise agree to disagree kind of thing. There really isn't any need to continually bring it up. As a christian she should be able to not only think of at least one way to justify her faith ((well, because it's faith. and if she said felt 'inspired by god' I don't think you are going to make her fall from faith too quickly.)) but she should also know she doesn't have to continually verbally witness to you. You can witness with people who don't want to talk about it just through leading by example and letting them come to you when ready. So, I would also try to spin it that way and let her know that the tension is not helping and that you know you can talk to her about her religion when and if you are ready to.  

[Theophrastus]

TSW, you know you and I don't always see eye to eye, but I'd like to offer some advice to you.

If what you say changes her world view, feel no guilt - the truth is self-evident, and if she realizes the truth it's no more your fault than mine, Dawkins' or the geological record's.

So if you have to get into that debate, meaning she leaves you no choice, the best thing you can do is to be honest, and to be there for her as she climbs out of the religious world view. Just be a friend, like always, and let her see that Atheists are caring, good people like I know you can.

You're a much gentler soul than I, and that's probably why we have so many different viewpoints, but that disposition will work in your favor should you need to help her walk out of religion.

And if she hates you for it...just walk on. All one can ever do is walk on.  

[Arios V]

Theophrastus

TSW, you know you and I don't always see eye to eye, but I'd like to offer some advice to you.

If what you say changes her world view, feel no guilt - the truth is self-evident, and if she realizes the truth it's no more your fault than mine, Dawkins' or the geological record's.

So if you have to get into that debate, meaning she leaves you no choice, the best thing you can do is to be honest, and to be there for her as she climbs out of the religious world view. Just be a friend, like always, and let her see that Atheists are caring, good people like I know you can.

You're a much gentler soul than I, and that's probably why we have so many different viewpoints, but that disposition will work in your favor should you need to help her walk out of religion.

And if she hates you for it...just walk on. All one can ever do is walk on.

I wish I had done that. I'm caring and all, but after I browbeat my friend, I really didn't want to bother him, I didn't want to make him even angrier at me for basically causing his whole world to come crashing down.  

[Tenth Speed Writer]

Theophrastus

TSW, you know you and I don't always see eye to eye, but I'd like to offer some advice to you.

If what you say changes her world view, feel no guilt - the truth is self-evident, and if she realizes the truth it's no more your fault than mine, Dawkins' or the geological record's.

So if you have to get into that debate, meaning she leaves you no choice, the best thing you can do is to be honest, and to be there for her as she climbs out of the religious world view. Just be a friend, like always, and let her see that Atheists are caring, good people like I know you can.

You're a much gentler soul than I, and that's probably why we have so many different viewpoints, but that disposition will work in your favor should you need to help her walk out of religion.

And if she hates you for it...just walk on. All one can ever do is walk on.

Maybe... perhaps. Some day I may just show her my side. It's not something I'd like to do, and I can't fathom blowing off losing her as a friend by saying "she's not worth it" as anon suggested, but if it comes to it...

I just don't know.  

[Cirosan]

I would advise you get together with her and prepare for a long talk. Ask her if she would sit with you and have a conversation on why you have your beliefs, why she has hers, and why the differences between the two doctrines you two share is irrelevant in the long run.

I know, if you both have the will, you will work it out. I know because I've been there.

One of my dearest friends is a very devout Catholic, and at first we had some problems. But eventually, through conversation, we came to an understanding, and shared mutual respect for one another. He would later say to me that I had changed his views on Atheism and Atheists, had shown him that the two were just different and not sworn enemies, and that Atheists have both good and bad people like any other demographic. He did the same for me, by showing me that not all Theists were ignorant bigots either, as I had once believed.

From what I understand, you two both seem like good, reasonable people. It may take quite a bit of effort and time, but I am certain you will eventually come to an understanding. It may be hard, but anything worth having is worth fighting for.

I wish you the best of luck.  

[Redem]

I would make it plain that any emotional appeals won't make a difference, that you came to the realisation that there is no God based on reason. And won't change your mind because of emotional appeals.  

[ProjectOmicron88]

When you take a step back and think about war, peace, food, drink, good film, good television, good theater, stories of dumb criminals, video games, paintball, rock climbing, sports, a good night's rest, education, good music, economy, politics, history, science, architecture, fine art, and good sex, you begin to realize how minor an aspect of life religion really is. It sounds like both of you could stand to take your conversations in another direction every once in a while.  

[AnonymouZ]

Now, now... i didn't say to blow her off. I said that you should hold YOUR tongue if you can't explain that atheistic "beliefs" do not, in most people, deprive you of meaning and sense in your life.

However, i cannot help but to say "******** FINALLY" at you, for reaction to my taunts of you being a christian. Now i know you weren't one, (or that at least you say you weren't) and can go ahead now and say:

Just because lots of people have lost their essence, or suffer depression from living life without artificial gods it doesn't mean that your friend is gonna react that way. Especially if she has you, "a gentle soul*", by example. If the situation would arise again, i'd start with asking her to LOOK at you. To see and understand that living without belief in gods has not destroyed YOU, therefore you are not in need of salvation or convertion of any kind. If she were to continue, i'd just follow the conversation with bits of your life as examples.

Maybe then the shock of a god being false and abhorrently malicious, "yet kind", should be less than the one Arios' inflicted on his friend.

And for that ******** X-treme example of a person dying from finding out gods aren't real, or at least HIS, is for me... uncharacteristically funny. You have to give it a thought tho... maybe his brain was already damaged and any other shock could have had the same effect.


*as Theo suggests  

[Tenth Speed Writer]

Hah. HAHAHA!

Nevermind. She hates me.
Oh, so wonderfully wise am I.

Spite tells me I should shake her faith just to get back at her
Pride says that would be acting just like my father
Greed says the effort of not doing it is unrewarded
Frustration says it's not meant to be

I still love her. I feel sick.  

[Cirosan]

Tenth Speed Writer

Hah. HAHAHA!

Nevermind. She hates me.
Oh, so wonderfully wise am I.

Spite tells me I should shake her faith just to get back at her
Pride says that would be acting just like my father
Greed says the effort of not doing it is unrewarded
Frustration says it's not meant to be

I still love her. I feel sick.

No bridge is burned forever.

And you are wise, TSW! You survive in an environment practically engineered to be hostile!

But honestly, I'm not sure if she's worth it. If she would exile and degrade you for a difference in beliefs, I have no idea how impatient she may be on other relevant issues in a relationship.

It's up to you. It's a matter of personal opinion if you should drop it or pursue it.