Now, it's perfectly fine to disagree with that characterization, and I'd even be happy to chat/debate the point should you (O Hypothetical Reader) PM me or make a comment here. And that's the sort of healthy debate I was looking for last night when I started reading the thread.
Now, even though I've been on chatboards before, I still haven't quite gotten the idea that there are Some Who Are Best Not Addressed Directly. And if you do, try not to get irritable with them, lest they blow up. The following is hardly the worst flame incident in Gaian history, but I still should know better. Here goes (again, I was tired in the first few posts)--
Post One (a generic Thank You to the Original Poster):
V says:
Quote:
Excellent post, Toga! Toga!
I, for one, am quite sick of hearing about doubtlessly apocryphal "feminazis" who hate all men and housewives and won't rest until--well, something. The blathers always seem to be rather non-specific about the exact schemes of these nefarious feminists. Perhaps, like all good Evil Overlords (Overladies?), they are right now holed up in a secret cave with an Anti-man missle poised at major population centers. "Men of the world, prepare for DEATH!"
Or some such.
*sigh* I've known at least a hundred self-described feminists (admittedly, I do live in SoCal). None of them meet the stereotype. I'm sorry, but in a world of 3 billion women, there will be a few wackjobs out there. And given a microphone, they will talk into it. But I haven't met any of them in person.
Feminism is simply about equality under the law, not about making men and women act alike. That is definitional, not my personal interpetation. Even if we were to accept the somewhat preposterous notion that we already enjoy full equality, feminism would still have to exist to ensure that we didn't slip back.
Our great grandmothers fought to get the vote, our grandmothers fought for a chance to work, our mothers fought for equality in the workplace and safety in the streets. Should we let them down because in some circles, the word "feminism" has accumulated baggage it neither earned nor deserved?
Enough civility. Shortly after, this gem pops up:
Quote:
[gossamer Wrote:
"]Feminists are wanting freedom from rape?
For the loss!
What's next?
Freedom from murder?
It's going to happen,
and no matter how many laws you impose,
it'll still happen. Jesus.
And I have the poor sense to answer it (quoting his whole post), and be irritable about this nonsense to boot:
Quote:
Right. So we shouldn't have any laws against murder or rape. Any attempt to prevent murder or rape through neighborhood watch programs, rape prevention programs or whatever is also wasted effort.
Please think before you post. This isn't the Chatterbox.
I freely admit that I ought not to have said the last. But, please, since when has a single feminist said they expect to end all rape? And when does an inability to stop ALL crime mean that it's foolish to try to prevent SOME crime. Sorry, getting worked up again. The subject is a very unpleasant one, and I'm not sure men understand how much it weighs on women's minds. I mean, I do have to watch where I wander about in a way I don't think men worry about. But that's another subject.
So, our Gossamer fellow takes affront:
Quote:
[gossamer Wrote:
"]
I thought my post through.
But you should try being less...stupid.
It's going to happen, no matter what we do.
We have laws against it, yes, but it'll still happen.
If the threat of life in jail, or even death,
doesn't stop a person from raping another,
what do you think you could possibly do
to stop rape all together?
Think the statment through- then post, dear.
It makes my job easier,
and you less moronic.
Taking what I said out of context
doesn't make you look any smarter, either.
"]
I thought my post through.
But you should try being less...stupid.
It's going to happen, no matter what we do.
We have laws against it, yes, but it'll still happen.
If the threat of life in jail, or even death,
doesn't stop a person from raping another,
what do you think you could possibly do
to stop rape all together?
Think the statment through- then post, dear.
It makes my job easier,
and you less moronic.
Taking what I said out of context
doesn't make you look any smarter, either.
(Size 9 colored print eliminated for ease of reading)
And I just can't let that go. Hackles up, I respond (at this point, Oxbridge is encouraging me to walk Puppy or something like that):
Quote:
Ah. I have been called "stupid" and "moronic", then you used the excessively familiar "dear". Darn it all, I suppose that means you've "won" the debate.
Quoting the your entire post isn't exactly taking you out of context, is it? Nor does the fact that you just repeated what you said before bolster your argument. This is what I meant by Chatterbox "debating" technique. I think we can do better here. I don't ask you to agree with me, but I would appreciate less sillyness.
I think a more reasonable counter-point might be: "Feminists seem to have an impossible goal of stopping rape altogether". I would then say, "no one expects the impossible, and (like any crime) rape will sadly always be with us. That doesn't mean that it's worthless effort to try to prevent crime. If we can stop even one rape (or murder, to use your analogy), we have done something."
There, isn't that just a little bit more civil?
Quoting the your entire post isn't exactly taking you out of context, is it? Nor does the fact that you just repeated what you said before bolster your argument. This is what I meant by Chatterbox "debating" technique. I think we can do better here. I don't ask you to agree with me, but I would appreciate less sillyness.
I think a more reasonable counter-point might be: "Feminists seem to have an impossible goal of stopping rape altogether". I would then say, "no one expects the impossible, and (like any crime) rape will sadly always be with us. That doesn't mean that it's worthless effort to try to prevent crime. If we can stop even one rape (or murder, to use your analogy), we have done something."
There, isn't that just a little bit more civil?
This is where the internet is not like real life. In real life, I'd walk away from an a** like this. Instead, here I am, trying to reason with him, and encouraging him to continue the discussion. What was I thinking?
He's unhappy, and quotes the entire passage, followed by:
Quote:
You just said exactly what I said.
Jesus.
And this:
is what I mean by taking what I said outof context.I never said there should be no laws against rape, yet you immediately jumped at the chance to make me look like the bad guy.
Jesus.
And this:
Quote:
Quote:
So we shouldn't have any laws against murder or rape.
So we shouldn't have any laws against murder or rape.
is what I mean by taking what I said outof context.I never said there should be no laws against rape, yet you immediately jumped at the chance to make me look like the bad guy.
This is about the point that I realize that he is no longer reacting to anything I say, but instead reacting to, oh, I don't know, his ex-girlfriend or homeroom teacher. Or something. But V is a writer, and sometimes just can't shut up. I finish with:
V. Wolfe
[gossamer]
You just said exactly what I said.
Jesus.
Thank you for toning the verbiage down. As I said, I don't mind disagreement, but direct insults are a bit much for me (fainting flower that I am).
I certainly did rephrase what you said, but without the use of the words "Stupid" and "Moronic". That's a major difference, and as I said, I appreciate your restraint this time around. I wouldn't be talking to you if you had continued in that vein.
More importantly, I clarified what I think you're trying to say from "What's next? Freedom from murder?" to "Feminists seem to have an impossible goal". The chief difference is that the latter simply means that you think feminists are excessively idealistic (perhaps a valid charge at times). The former sounds as if you think attempts at rape prevention are futile because we can never acheive a crime free society "no matter how many laws you impose".
Quote:
And this:
is what I mean by taking what I said outof context.I never said there should be no laws against rape, yet you immediately jumped at the chance to make me look like the bad guy.
Quote:
So we shouldn't have any laws against murder or rape.
is what I mean by taking what I said outof context.I never said there should be no laws against rape, yet you immediately jumped at the chance to make me look like the bad guy.
Nope, not out of context. I quoted your entire post. It was pretty clear that you thought feminists were foolish for wanting "freedom from rape" because, like murder, "no matter how many laws you impose, it'll still happen". Taken at face value, that would mean that all laws are equally foolish, as no matter what, crime will happen.
Now you are backing away from that original point, and saying that makes you sound like a "bad guy". I don't think you're a bad guy, though. I think you just haven't thought through the implications of what you're saying.
I doubt very much you're in favor of rape. That makes two of us. Where I differ from you is that I am in favor of a movement that (among other things) wants to raise public awareness about that crime, change attitudes so we no longer automatically blame the victim, establish rape crisis centers, and help the police as best as we can so they can catch and convict rapists.
And who on earth can call that a bad thing?
Well, he didn't respond, which is probably less due to my rapier wit and Socratic method, and more due to him getting bored and wandering off. But I was, believe it or not, upset by the whole thing. I'm a chatterbox, but I'm not very argumentative. Even stuff like that gets me upset. I mean, I react to virtual attacks the same way that I react to Real World attacks. Some guy came up to me and called me names! I would be upset if that happened in a carport, why wouldn't I be upset on an online forum? Of course, in Real Life (as I said) I would have left quickly.
I guess I should just learn my lesson and stay away from online debates. I wish I was made of tougher emotional stuff, but I guess I wasn't lying to Gossamer. I really am a fainting flower at times. neutral
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